Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads.....

[Gamecock]

No, but "modern JHP" are better designed and do a better job in balancing expansion and penetration than older rounds, and not just in gel.

That is utterly meaningless.

 

[URIT]

There seem to be multiple issues in the OP. First, the issue of too much or too little penetration. Second, rounds stopping ability. And third, wife's dislike for recoil.

The penetration argument through multiple layers of clothing using a short barrel firearm is handled excellently with these ballistic tests: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Most LEOs were trained to shoot more than one round at a suspect. I remember an FBI agent telling me in recruit school to fire at least two rounds at mass (torso).

I've learned through many shooting debriefings that we tend to shot where we have our eyes focused which is usually the other person's weapon.

I've always felt confident that a double tap to the chest will cause some serious hurt for the bad guy. Bone shards flying around the body cavity do as much damage as other pieces of matter introduced by the shooting.

I train with 6" paper plates and 3X5 cards to represent chest and head. 2 rounds to the plate and 1 to the 3X5. I also have a 1" black dot 2-inches off to the side and 4" down which I use as a focal point distraction in a P&A shoot sequence.

Lastly, to deal with dreaded recoil simply train with other guns or ammo and limit live fire with the CCW choice to only a handful of rounds to build confidence without a painful hand from firing a box of ammo.

I often carry a Walther PPS40 which is not a pleasant range gun, but I train with it everytime I go to the range. I may only fire one magazine of ammo, but I assure myself that I will hit what I am shooting at if forced to do so.

Experience has shown me that when we are defending ourselves, we are so pumped we don't feel the recoil.

 

[shawn mccarver]

This is going to sound all over the place. But maybe you guys can help make sense of it.....

I was in line at the Pharmacy and there was a guy there that was just huge. But not in a only fat kind of way. Not a body builder either. But in a, used to be bad to the bone but getting older kind of way. He was may be 35-40 and just looked like had a hard life. And even a bit sketchy so my defense meter was up. He was probably harmless and such but I've been burned before in the past just assuming the best in everyone around me. So I've become more wary. Anyways.... Not that I was profiling or anything. I was just being cautious. But what struck me was his size. His upper torso was just really big. I'm guessing if he lifted up his arms, side to side would been more than 24" and with his shoulders / arms down, a heck of a lot more. All of a sudden it just got me thinking about penetration.

Furthermore, it struck me that all the "viable" tests are done with gel and sometimes denim but if you're shooting at a torso, the likelihood of you hitting bone right off the bat is very good. And head shots too obviously.

And then to add insult to injury, it's starting to look a lot like... Well this year has been a weird year but suffice to say, winter is coming. And up here, it gets real cold a lot. So people wear thick jackets.

And I'm just like... a little overwhelmed by in a real life scenario in winter, if my .38's out of a snubby would actually work.

I think the answer is yes. And it's not the first time I've had this perspective but honestly, I want a round that is going to penetrate. WELL. A lot more well than everybodie's insistence on 12-18" sweet spot. Heck, I'd rather it lean towards 24". Cuz if it hits a bone, it's going to slow it down and it's not going to penetrate as deeply as it does in the tests of just gel. At least that's what I think.

But then the caveat is, I don't shoot +p's well in my 442. Some day I'd like a steel J frame, but money is tight. And beyond that, most of the +p's are rounds that will open up and will just slow down penetration anyways..... If I was going to shoot +p, I'd almost rather have a FMJ +p.

But what I've come to the conclusion is that I think I'm just going to start carrying vanilla ole FMJ. All the time. And maybe try to find some of the hotter FMJ rounds. I'm not really sure what that would be, because usually the FMJ stuff is loaded for practice and range. So they're not usually all that hot. The PMC and Winchster I've shot seem to fall into a pretty mild felt recoiling round. On the other hand, if they penetrate a lot better than any of the HP rounds, than it's kind of a win win.

So, if any of you guys have chronographed FMJ rounds with the same intent, to see what might be the hotter of them, I'm all ears. I'm also open to hearing your opinions. I know I can be kind of neurotic about this stuff and my thinking is sometimes off. And I understand WHY rounds are designed to not penetrate too far. I realize one that goes through a person could harm someone else. And I get that. But I feel like an FMJ round isn't likely to go through two sets of ribs and still be sailing out. In fact, I just watched a Paul Herrel video where he uses a set up to simulate a torso with ribs and oranges and pigs ears for skin. Etc. And none of the standard pressure rounds went through the T shirt on the back side. Although he did not test FMJ's. Just Hornady 125 XTP, 110 Critical Defense and one other load......

Now, the converse to all of this is I'm thinking about setting my wife up with my Detective Special and low recoiling rounds. Because I feel like it's better than a .22..... LOL. And even with wadcutters she didn't like the recoil.... Although she must just be better off with a .22.

Our friend Mas Ayoob used to go from the 9mm +P+ in summer to a deeper penetrating .45 in the winter on the theory that the .45 could penetrate deeper during those times of year when the bad guy might be wearing heavy clothing including winter coats, etc. He had it right, and it bears looking into by anyone interested in personal defense.

 

[federali]

Arming for the Exception

I too have occasionally run across a male so large that you would need a bulldozer to stop him. Yet, I'm not about to start carrying a .44 Magnum or larger handgun for the sheer discomfort of carrying a large handgun.

I would continue to use modern defense loads enjoying a good reputation. If you had to shoot someone, chances are he's in attack mode and squarely facing you. The bullet does not need to penetrate 12 or more inches to reach the vitals. Police have an entirely different need as, depending on circumstances, they may have to shoot from any angle and at far greater distances such as the 47-yard shot into the arm and chest of Mike Platt and which failed to stop him during the infamous Miami FBI shootout of 1986.. Thus, the FBI penetration protocol makes sense for LEOs but may not be as valid for the CCW.

 

[Wise_A]

As has already been states--use JHPs, and forget about the gel tests.

If you're concerned about the performance of .38 Spl JHPs, the solution isn't to switch to FMJs. Switch to a more potent cartridge, and/or a more capacious handgun.

Now, regarding some other stuff you said.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. The hole that the bullet goes in will leak. The blood vessels broken from the small wound track will not mend themselves back together after the bullet passes through.

In my opinion, a "stop" through blood loss is the least-desirable mechanism:

--The attacker is still likely dead, whereas him living is preferable.
--Bleeding to death is slow enough that, even mortally-wounded, he'll have plenty of time to kill you.

Plus, I know that this will probably get people in an uproar, but I'm not sure my main goal is to kill someone.

By using a less-effective round, that is exactly the end result you're promoting. The more hits you must inflict to achieve a "stop", the lower the subject's chances of survival.

Military and Police may have different missions.

They don't. I'll assume you're just ill-informed, and not actively trying to be offensive.

Police have the same goal--achieving either a "stop", or compliance. Suggesting otherwise is rather offensive.

 

[ABPOS]

As has already been states--use JHPs, and forget about the gel tests.

If you're concerned about the performance of .38 Spl JHPs, the solution isn't to switch to FMJs. Switch to a more potent cartridge, and/or a more capacious handgun.

Now, regarding some other stuff you said.



In my opinion, a "stop" through blood loss is the least-desirable mechanism:

--The attacker is still likely dead, whereas him living is preferable.
--Bleeding to death is slow enough that, even mortally-wounded, he'll have plenty of time to kill you.



By using a less-effective round, that is exactly the end result you're promoting. The more hits you must inflict to achieve a "stop", the lower the subject's chances of survival.



They don't. I'll assume you're just ill-informed, and not actively trying to be offensive.

Police have the same goal--achieving either a "stop", or compliance. Suggesting otherwise is rather offensive.

Well, you can blame Claude Werner for the suggestion. I suggest you watch the video. Whether or not I'm responsible for repeating what he said as a viable way to think of things, I guess you can blame me for that.

We're just talking here. We all can make our minds up and carry what we want. Not sure why that would be offensive. I promise I'm not trying to be. But I realize the suggestion was probably controversial. I'm definitely no expert on self defense and I apologize for offending you. But again, I'm repeating a theory by a Ex Military trainer that may have some wisdom more than I.

 

[F75gunslinger]

From everything I read, I'll stick to JHPs. They tend to do more damage when they open properly, and even if they clog with clothing they are still pretty much the same as a FMJ, so just as effective. If I am forced to shoot someone, I want the bullet to do as much damage as I can get. A handgun isn't the best means to that end,but I feel that going to a FMJ is a step in the wrong direction.

I also believe that over penetration is a major issue that should be considered. You may have to shoot someone, and as long as they are stopped and you were in the right for doing it, you should be in relatively good shape. Have a couple rounds go through an assailant and into others, and you are liable. A civil court case in that situation would probably bankrupt most people. I'd prefer to be alive and not responsible for another persons injuries.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Use a quality hollow point and practice targeting and hitting different areas of the body such as the pelvic area or high chest/low neck area.

 

[Duckford]

I am not, nor claim to be, an expert on this, but I do like to think of myself as a "student" of this event, among others.

I think you really need to go back and research the events, etc., surrounding the "Miami shootout".

I think you will find the failure was NOT of ammunition, but of tactics.

Except for the fact that Dove's bullet (the one that mortally wounded the bank robber but did not kill him fast enough) was on a b-line for the heart and stopped short. The fact is, Dove's ammunition choice DID get him killed that day. A better 9mm hollow point would have saved him, a 357 Magnum, a 45 ACP in hollow points would have saved him. Certainly the FBI agents that day made mistakes, but 9mm Luger fanbois work overtime to convince you that's all that was wrong and try to obscure the fact that the hollow point choice that day ended up with two dead FBI agents. That's a fact.

Its why the 12 inch minimum in gel tests is so important, and its good to see people concerned about it in their carry considerations. Bullets that can't hack it in a gel test aren't a smart choice, and when comparing apples to oranges in gel test results deeper is better. 18 inch is better than 12 inch, and the practice of some to judge everything by expansion and just sneaking over the 12 inch mark have potential holes in their theory and parameters. Especially the folks who "well, half the bullets made it to the 12 inch mark even if the other half didn't, and it expanded alright, let's go with it" or the far worse "well, even if 100% of the bullets failed the FBI penetration depth, I like the look of that gelly wound track". A handgun round that doesn't get deep enough to hit something of value is potentially worthless.

I made a video on the subject, and when you consider shot angles in human beings and various situations police and civilians defending themselves might find themselves in, 18 inches in some situations can be almost short. Put the attackers arms in the right place, and change how you stand or sit or are ont he ground after being knocked down, it might be a long way to the man's heart to change his mind.

Its one of the strongest points 45 ACP and 357 Magnum have with improvements in 9mm Luger. It isn't so much that 45 will expand larger with modern hollow points, its the fact it can penetrate deep with expanded bullets and do so very consistently. 357 Magnum wasn't always killing with magical high velocity damage that never existed, it succeeded because it consistently expanded (even back in the early days of hollow points where rates of bullets expanding as designed were sometimes very low) and punched deep. 10mm wasn't going to super outdamage 9mm, it was going to consistently out penetrate it, as well as have greater damage potential.

The guys carrying 148 grain wadcutters are a bit more on the ball than those carrying lightweight 38 hollow points that might actually expand and prevent proper penetration. Might be easy to criticize the men still carrying low power Keiths in their 44's and 45's, then again they have worked. Choose a good hollow point that has proof behind it, don't just buy magic beans, or buy hollow points that have poor performance just because 'hollow point", or buy hollow points for cartridges that can't use them properly, or light loads that can't use them.

Better safer than sorrier in these types of situations. Rare enough to use a firearm in self defense, it would be a shame to lose because you chose a poor load because of average odds.

 

[shouldazagged]

Damn, and I'm all out of popcorn.

And endurance.

I'll just carry what I've been carrying, and let you guys fight it out here. The chances of my needing to shoot anyone are minuscule. If I've chosen wrong, well, I've had a pretty good run.

 

[fredj338]

Again, I suggest a re-visit to the "shootout", the failure was tactics, plain and simple.

To blame one round of ammo, for the failures that day, IMHO is a major mistake.

But hey, if that's what you want to believe, that's on you.

Best of luck to you, in your search.

To not acknowledge it was both is missing a good part of the failure. Good hit on a target that presented itself & the bullet didnt quite make it to damage more vital organs. Why 12" is not even a decent minimum when talking big guys & odd angles. Yep, bringing handguns to a long gun fight is a tactical error to start. Also not being really good enough with ones choice of pistol is also a tactical error facing hardened criminal killers.

 

[Imissedagain]

Will be trying Penn 120g TCBB .355" Premium Cast for 380ACP as their 100g TCBB PC are great on paper targets at 20 yds ....offhand, leaning against a tree.
Save the copper funds for the bigbores..... but some 120s will be powdered with N320.
The rest..... Bullseye!
Accuracy is paramount.

 

[Wise_A]

Well, you can blame Claude Werner for the suggestion. I suggest you watch the video. Whether or not I'm responsible for repeating what he said as a viable way to think of things, I guess you can blame me for that.

We're just talking here. We all can make our minds up and carry what we want. Not sure why that would be offensive. I promise I'm not trying to be. But I realize the suggestion was probably controversial. I'm definitely no expert on self defense and I apologize for offending you. But again, I'm repeating a theory by a Ex Military trainer that may have some wisdom more than I.

What Claude's doing is saying "something is better than nothing", and fluffing it out into a big thing to try and generate buzz and sell stuff. Which is what his job really is. You can be a great trainer and fail horribly if you can't generate publicity. I used to think Gabe Suarez was a literal retard, but the guy's a negative-publicity genius. He says crazy stuff, everyone starts raging about it, and then he goes back to pushing non-crazy stuff now that is name is back out there.

Anyway, CW isn't wrong...sort've. I think he's jumbling up his words a bit. Most incidents that require a pistol do require nothing more than being able to truthfully shout "Leave me alone, I have a gun!". And many beyond that are resolved because the subject decides that getting shot sucks (psychological stop). For that, having a pistol that actually fires is sufficient.

So, given concealment requirements or non-permissive environments, being armed with a itsy-bitsy gun will still handle a great many incidents. And if Werner is actually trying to say "small guns are okay because they can make bad guys run away"--well, then he is wrong and I am right.

But small pistols aren't acceptable self-defense tools because they can make bad guys run away. They're acceptable self-defense tools because they're still capable of physically stopping an attacker.

What I don't see is where this has anything to do with ammo selection.

Next, where you ran afoul was where you juxtaposed

I'm not sure my main goal is to kill someone.

with

That doesn't always mean, or hasn't always meant DRT. Military and Police may have different missions.

which implies that the police are trying to kill. That's the part that's offensive. I generally don't consider bad gear choices offensive, I use a color-coded silly/dumb/suicidal system. Applying lethal force =/= shooting to kill. And it's absolutely not what Claude Werner said.

I've heard stories of some .38's and other guns actually not defeating a skull.

Pretty much every defensive cartridge has bounced off someone's skull, or burrowed under the skin and popped out the back without entering the cranial cavity. In fact, I know of a situation where a guy took a penetrating .357 Mag to the brain and kept fighting--with multiple hits to the torso already. Brain shot #2 dropped him.

---

Like I said, if I were in your shoes, I'd just keep carrying that 442. Evaluate whether you really shoot +P badly--are you inaccurate, do you lose your grip with +P, or do you just not like it--and carry whichever you decide on. I don't think carry a .38 m'self, but my objection is capacity, not terminal performance.

In other words, even if you believe JHPs won't expand and FMJs will penetrate deeper, I don't think that switching to FMJs will solve the 442's limitations. I further think that switching from standard pressure to +P ammunition won't solve the problem you perceive, either.

PS--I also don't think that gear is really that important compared to making good decisions leading up to the fight (i.e.--setting yourself up for success). One of the few things I think is a worthwhile lesson from the military line of reasoning is that if you find yourself in a fair fight, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Hapworth]

Yeehawww!!! Another one of these...

Valid questions and concerns from OP, but always devolves into caliber and bullet design back-and-forth long on deeply held opinions, short on nuance or definitives, and no end in sight.

OP, first rule of a gunfight:

1) Be somewhere else.

Second rule of a gunfight:

2) Have a gun.

After that, what really matters is said gun is reliable and accurate sending the rounds you stoke it with, whatever they may be.

We all can and should worry a little less about the hardware and more about the software: can we run the gun efficiently under duress, and in the types of scenarios we're likely to encounter? I'd argue that having a smart defensive plan in place for the home, or working drills with your actual carry piece using your actual carry rig wearing clothes you actually wear, or having at least a modicum of trained ability to fend off and wrestle with an attacker until you can successfully deploy your carry piece (much likelier than most of our quick-draw one shot fantasies) are the things to spend time pondering over.

Square that kind of stuff and as long as you're not carrying a known jam-o-matic loaded with Bubba from the carnival's reloads, you're ahead of the curve.

 

[Echo40]

Like so many others I see on the internet on the subject of self-defense, you worry too much. Be confident in what you've got and stop worrying about what-if scenarios in which your carry gun has to be used against a larger assailant in which the .38 Special just so happens to be less than adequate, based purely on assumption.

That being said, I have found that among lower velocity bullets such as .38 Special, .380 ACP, and .45 ACP, the Hornady's XTP bullets reign supreme, boasting the perfect balance of penetration and expansion with the utmost reliability. Brand doesn't seem to matter either, so anything that uses the XTP bullet ought to be an adequate performer.

Last but not least, the idea that heavy winter clothing can serve as a rudimentary ballistics vest is nothing more than an overstated urban legend. Seriously, it has been tested many times by a variety of shooters on YouTube, and it has been soundly debunked. In fact, when it comes to Jacketed Hollow Point bullets, the exact opposite can be true because if the cavity gets plugged up with clothing and doesn't expand it actually penetrates even deeper.
I actually saw one particular video in which a guy went out to a thrift store, bought hundreds of Tee Shirts, placed them all over a rubber dummy and shot them with a variety of cartridges. IIRC, it took over 200 layers to stop a .22LR and over 600 layers to stop a 9mm Luger. Needless to say, it would be physically impossible to wear that many layers of clothing and maintain mobility.
I also watched another video by ShootingtheBull410 on YouTube in which he shot a specific brand/style of heavy winter coat after a dubious report by NY Police that it was bulletproof. Regardless of what he did, .22LR fired from a pistol zipped right through it, he even tried wadding it up into a tight little ball then shooting it, yet the .22LR passed right through.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Just remember GOLIATH.......A giant of a man was killed with a small, low velocity ROCK.

 

[wnderr]

MHO, you are way overthinking this. The round you plan on using on an ordinary person, will kill the big guy just as dead! Hitting bone is a good thing, as it causes more projectiles bouncing around in there. Fat and muscle, really are pretty easy to go thru, and the protected organs are what you really hope to damage. A good 9mm HP is always a good load for self defense.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Wow. Just, wow. The last 7 years before I retired I carried a 4 inch .357 Magnum and a 2 inch .38 Special (standard pressure). I see no reason to change just because I retired and weather.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

 

[getoff]

when the 110gr. critical defense hit the market, me and a couple friends (1 LEO, 1 Former security contractor, me gun salesman and nra instructor at the time) shot wet phone books, water jugs, drywall with 2x4s, and big bars of soap from Sedanos market with it, and several other defensive rounds. i still carry the 110gr. critical def. in my j frames to this day. penetrates really well, retains bullet weight, and reliably expands while producing moderate recoil. at 1010fps, it has +p velocity. my wife has the 90gr. lite in her airweight. its pushing 1200fps. i'd be to worried about over penetration on all but the biggest of bodies with fmj. drug fiends and muggers tend to be slimmer on avg. and i don't think fmj would be so good on a crack addled user, or heroin sponge... JMHO.

 

[Fastbolt]

...

But then the caveat is, I don't shoot +p's well in my 442.

...

But what I've come to the conclusion is that I think I'm just going to start carrying vanilla ole FMJ. All the time. ...


Now, the converse to all of this is I'm thinking about setting my wife up with my Detective Special and low recoiling rounds. Because I feel like it's better than a .22..... LOL. And even with wadcutters she didn't like the recoil.... Although she must just be better off with a .22.

Well, like some other folks have opined, I'd think you were over-thinking things a mite.

Not that it's wrong to give careful consideration to matters potentially involving the use of deadly force, mind you, but more that just focusing too much on the gear might distract you from the really critical things. You know, things like a working lay person's awareness and knowledge of the applicable laws, your mindset, your health, your skillset background and practice regimen, etc.

Now, if it were any of the folks who I used to help train who came to me and brought this subject up, I'd be able to presume they'd already been exposed to, and learned, all of the relevant basics (since they were working cops). So, we'd get right to the gear and gear-user questions.

If they didn't shoot +P in their +P-rated Airweights, why not? Was it something we could correct with some remedial and/or extra training? We they interested in putting in the extra work to learn to better control their Airweight using +P?

If they weren't interested in extra work, then how might we make an adjustment to the gear, meaning the snub and the ammunition? Maybe a larger and/or softer set of grips? Changing to a standard pressure load?

If it was the increased recoil of the +P causing the problem, then what standard pressure load might offer them the best compromise?

Personally, I'd suggest a standard pressure JHP over a solid, and unless policy mandated the use of a JHP over a non-JHP, I'd suggest a flat-nosed semiwadcutter or a RNL or jacketed ball, or even a target wadcutter over a RNL or jacketed ball. Why? Because the nose cavity might create the potential for more effective wounding, even if it didn't expand, or at least the flat meplat (nose profile) of the semiwadcutter or target wadcutter might cut and crush more tissue.

Penetration? Coin toss whether some given amount will prove to be not enough or too much in any given set of circumstances. Misses, perforations (over-penetration) and even peripheral hits on anatomical areas (shallow and outside hits which result in wounding where the bullet punches through) are concerns, because those bullets are going to hit somewhere, or someone.

Obstructions caused by intervening limbs (like an arm)? I don't lose sleep worrying about those things. Neither do I lose sleep worrying about shooting at someone positioned at an angle, meaning having to make an oblique shot that has to defeat the greater distance and obstructing bones of the shoulder capsule, if someone is facing partially away from me.

I'm retired, so I'm no longer going to be putting myself into situations where I choose to invoke peace officer status and insert myself into someone's in-progress violent criminal attack against someone else. Maybe, like in an active shooter/terrorist event where I'm unwillingly caught up in the midst of it, but if that's the case I likely have bigger problems to overcome than worrying about a little more or less "penetration".

Anyway, some years ago I was speaking with a well known trainer who worked with LE. I won't name-drop here, but suffice to say that most gun enthusiasts who think about self defense and handgun ammunition would recognize the name.

So, he was asked by a large agency to participate in a pilot program where the agency was considering equipping its officers with 5-shot Airweight snubs for both on-duty secondary use ("backup), as well as off-duty use (since many cops don't want to carry a duty-size weapon on their own time). A representative group of people were used to test and assess guns and ammunition, and look at training methods that might be required.

He told me that one of the first things they'd observed was that even though there were some new JHP loads being offered specifically for use in short-barreled snubs, that the harsh recoil of the +P rounds was causing controllability and accuracy problems for most of the shooters. Hardly surprising, right?

The "solution" proposed was to adopt the use of the venerable target wadcutter. Granted, the already low velocity was reduced when fired from the sub-2" guns, but all of the shooters were able to make rapid and accurate hits suing that ammo. Ballistically, the WC target rounds were thought to offer plenty of usable penetration for the relatively close quarters defensive conditions anticipated as the likely role for the use of the little snub guns.

For personal reasons (distracted by a health issue of my own for more than a year), I lost touch with him after that, and never heard the eventual outcome and decision. Last time I spoke with him, he was of the strong opinion that good controllability and accuracy of the solid WC trumped the potential for expansion of one of the better JHP's that came at the cost of impaired controllability and reduced accuracy.

Now, while I don't mind using some +P loads in my all-steel and most of my Airweights (which are rated for +P), I have a pristine 37-2DAO Airweight that I don't want to abuse by using anything other than standard pressure loads. That being the case, I've typically used one or another 110gr JHP or a 125gr JHP, all of which are standard pressure and relatively mild shooting.

Last year I tried some of the Hornady FTX 110gr standard pressure loads. They felt even milder in recoil, and were nicely accurate in my 37-2DAO, in my hands. It became my standard load. Might expand, might not. Not a Round Nose or ball load, so it would seem to present a reduced risk of perforation of the threat. What's not to like? I ordered several boxes of it through a local store.

Now, if I couldn't get that load, I'd go back to the 110gr Hydra-Shok or STHP, or the American Gunner 125gr XTP. If they didn't expand, they might still do some cutting (nose cavity edges).

If I couldn't get those? I'd fall back on the old fashioned 158gr LSWC, or even the softer swaged lead Wadcutters (although I really dislike cleaning lead out of cylinder charge holes).

The bottom line is it's probably going to matter more where I put those rounds ... and possibly how quickly and how many ... versus what type of .38SPL bullets I put where.

To put it another way, one of routine drills is to practice to at least be able to shoot the old 5x5x5x5 drill, meaning shooting 2-handed and putting 5 rounds, in 5 seconds, into a 5" group from 5yds. I say at least, because I've spent enough practice time so i can usually run that drill, cold, in 2-3 seconds.

I also tighten up the distance to 3 or 4 yds (I vary it) and run the drill shooting 1-handed, low/center index (modified "hip"/point), and try to keep the shots clustered into a group no larger than can be covered with my tightened fist, and do it in 2-3 seconds.

I'm more interested into being able to run the little snubs fast, controllably and accurately, then losing sleep about the specific ammo I might be carrying on any particular day. The ammo might have to vary, for one reason or another over time, but it's always going to be me using the little guns.

I try to put my attention and emphasis where I think I can maintain some measure of control.

Just my thoughts, and I can't speak for anyone else.

Also, what your wife chooses for herself is something for her to decide, and hopefully her decision will be an informed one, based upon her perceived needs and abilities.

So, I'm off to the opening of my new, relocated and much larger private cigar club, and for the trip over the hill this afternoon I'm going to pocket(holster) one of my M&P 340's, which I think is presently loaded with Speer 135gr GDHP +P. The extra speedstrip I'll pocket with it is loaded with the Hornady CD 110gr FTX standard pressure load, though. YMMV.

As always ... TANSTAAFL.

 

[sniper]

Welll...I am in no way an "expert", have never, and never hope to have to shoot another human in anger, but I DO love to shoot, and have learned a few things, I hope.

In the late /70s, when I lived in California, two Highway Patrol officers stopped a man mountain like the OP described. He jumped from his pick-up with a 12 gauge shotgun in his hands, yelling; " I got the blood of Jesus in my veins", and started to draw down on an officer.

The CHP officers were carrying 357 Magnums then, (no info about the ammo) and they shot him 12 times! He lived to be tried and convicted. That had to hurt!

A friend of mine, also a CHP officer, carried a Walther PPK .380 as back up, and off duty.

Shot placement is primary, and PRACTICE is next! I do not shoot full snort .357s well, so I have settled on several loads that I think may give me a chance of survival, should the unthinkable become necessary.
1. Remington .38 +P SWCHP rounds, the cognoscenti say it has been decreased in power since the days when many departments used it. "Oooold technology", and therefore suspect! (?)

2. My carry ammo is the Speer 38 Spl +P 135 gr short barrel load, which the NYPD seems to have found very acceptable. Speer opines I should get ~920 fps from my 4" barrel. I may flirt with the Hornady offerings "just to see." Major U.S. manufacturer, no "Boutique or furrin' ammo." Except for .22 LONG Rifle, but that's just me.
My next purchase will be any major U.S. brand of 38 or 357 full Wadcutter, providing I can get decent accuracy out to 50-75 yards. ~ 850 fps, full Meplat, leaves major energy in the target, lower recoil, and I own several Lewis Lead Removers of proper caliber. I have not found it a problem to carry my full-sized revolver, but am seriously thinking about a 3" J frame for evenings out.

I will load commercial cast or plated bullets for fun & practice, loaded to ~ the same velocity/recoil impulse for as little transition from practice to the real world as possible.

As far as shouting"I HAVE A GUN:LEAVE ME (us) alone!...If it comes to that, I want it to be a very large surprise to anyone with hostile intent!

My considered opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

 

[Whitwabit]

I carry my Beretta PX4 Sub Compact in 9mm IWB all Spring , Summer and most of the Fall till around the first frost when heavier jackets tend to be the norm in my area ..

Then switching to my Sig P229 Legion in 40 or my S&W Compact in 40 for carry during the colder winter months .. The extra power will penetrate the heavier coats and jackets and other multiple layers of clothing worn during the below freezing weather here during the winter ..

I do add an extra bit of time in the winter shooting the groin and head and neck areas when I practice !!

 

[Donn]

For all my 38's, I've gone back to the old FBI load, or as close as I can get. 158 grain semi wad cutter hollow point, or semi jacketed HP's. From the You Tube vids I've seen, expansion's good and penetration's adequate, (for a standard pressure 38spl). A box of 50 sells for around the same price as a 20rd box of the latest & greatest +P SD ammo, and I don't have to worry about +P pressure in my older wheelguns. One man's choice/opinion, you understand.

 

[Smithpride]

I bet if you put a couple in the pelvic cavity and one in the face, you can stop the fight. Most people, even those wearing armor, can usually be perforated in the pelvic region. Many useful targets there, if you catch my drift, may even immobilize them. Plus, on the drawstroke, it's one of the first targets to see the front site.
But you do you. I'd feel vastly under gunned with a 5 round snubby, especially with today's roving youts.

 

[robertrwalsh]

The PERFECT round for EVERYTHING is a hard idea to work on, because it does not exist. Most people go for a 85% target and don't worry too much about the outliers. However, it must be acknowledged that outliers to occur, and by the time you have to actually whip it out and pull the trigger the odds have gone sideways on you already. You have to go with what seems reasonable and appropriate for you and your situation. If you get a body builder on angel dust you have a problem no matter what unless you are carrying an elephant gun. If you are attacked by a large pack of feral dogs and you have a J-frame with one reload, you have a problem. Life is sometimes complex.

 

[686-380]

I too am still learning the ropes with firearms. I can't answer your question but I can offer this experiment I performed with a heavy jacket. Granted, I didn't cover up the front.

I'm also of the opinion that there are too many factors to actually know what the perfect round/caliber/firearm will be. You pays your money and takes your chances.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_O0xSNybBE4[/ame]

 

[Frogwalking]

From the Knoxville News Sentinel: "Pedigo did not go peacefully, pointing a gun at Richardson and fellow agents. Richardson shot Pedigo five times. The medical examiner survived, blinded in one eye" I knew Randy Pedigo after he had been shot 5 times by 9mm hollow point bullets. He was a very large man, say 350 lbs or more. The 5 rounds did stop him, which, after all, was the intention. He told me he had been hit in one eye, lost all the teeth on the opposite side to another bullet, hit once on the chest, once in the stomach and in one arm. In looking him up for this response, it appears he has committed suicide. I guess the moral of this (if there is one) don't get overconfident in your 9,
mm.

 

[smoothshooter]

What's wrong with having your magazines loaded with alternating loads, like HP-HP-Ball-HP-HP-Ball-HP-HP-Ball, etc?

 

[Frogwalking]

Sorry folks. Another account said Randy had been shot 7 times. Here is the bulk of a account given in court when Pedigo was trying to collect disability insurance because of injuries from being shot. You may find this interesting, or maybe not. We seldom hear from the person who was shot.

From. the News Sentinel: Randall Pedigo was a physician in the Knoxville, Tennessee, area and had served for many years as the county medical examiner. Additionally, he was a recognized firearms expert and gun collector who had previously offered courses to the Knoxville Police Department on firearms' topics. By June 21, 1994, however, word had filtered to law enforcement officials that Pedigo had drugged and molested a teenage boy at the doctor's condominium.1 On June 22, therefore, officers of the Knoxville Police Department and the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation arrived at the condominium to ask Pedigo to accompany them to police headquarters for questioning. Originally, the officers were willing to allow Pedigo to follow them in his own Ford Bronco but, after discovering a loaded shotgun in that vehicle, insisted that the physician would be required to accompany them to the station. Pedigo then became visibly nervous and, after ascertaining that the police had neither an arrest warrant nor a search warrant with them at that time, stated that he intended to change out of his hospital scrubs into other clothing before departing.
The doctor did allow Agent Steve Richardson and other law enforcement personnel to stay with him as he readied himself. After dressing, Pedigo grabbed a pair of shoes and, after bypassing other chairs, attempted to sit down on a couch to tie his shoes. Before he could do so, however, a Knoxville police officer spotted a snub-nosed revolver sticking out from under a pillow on the couch and removed the weapon from Pedigo's reach. The plaintiff then began to stall his departure, insisting that he be allowed to check the locks on the back door and the power switches on the coffee pot.
As the officers finally exited from the condominium and Pedigo feigned to be locking the front door behind himself and them, the plaintiff darted back into his residence and slammed the front door on the police. Richardson yelled for Pedigo to stop and hit the door twice to open it, fearing that Pedigo would attempt to destroy evidence at the alleged crime scene.
According to Richardson's later testimony at trial, when he re-entered the residence and proceeded to the lower level of the dwelling, he saw Pedigo reach into a chair cushion. He yelled at the plaintiff to stop and to raise his hands above chair level. Instead, Pedigo pulled a gun from the chair, faced the agent, and extended his arms with both hands on the weapon in a police grip. At that time, fearing for his own safety, Richardson began firing his own gun and struck Pedigo seven times with gunshots before the plaintiff dropped his weapon. The parties stipulated at trial that, as a result of the shooting, Pedigo is now unable to practice surgery, that he has lost much of the use of his right hand, and that he has had his right eye removed.
The plaintiff offered a radically different account of the shooting. Although he did corroborate some of Richardson's testimony concerning the events of June 22, 1994, he maintained that when the agent re-entered the condominium, he (Pedigo) was contemplating suicide and had a gun raised to his temple and his back turned to the law enforcement official. He denied hearing Richardson yell instructions to him and claimed instead that he immediately felt what seemed to be a hard shove on his right shoulder before losing consciousness and collapsing into a pool of blood.
In an effort to corroborate his account of the shooting, Pedigo also attempted to testify at trial concerning his theories involving the entry and exit wounds he suffered. The district court rebuffed that attempt, however, ruling that such testimony by the plaintiff was in the nature of expert testimony and the plaintiff had not given the requisite notice to the defense that he would be providing such opinion evidence.
Additional testimony was offered by Dr. Clellum Blake, a forensic pathologist who was accepted by the district court as an expert witness. Blake emphatically rejected Pedigo's account of the shooting, testifying unequivocally that the wounds received by the plaintiff and the damage done to Pedigo's weapon during the shooting indicated that the doctor's arms and hands had to have been extended straight out from the front of his body at the time the shots were fired by Agent Richardson. Furthermore, Blake surmised that, "without question," Pedigo had two hands on the gun during the initial stages of the confrontation. Blake had no doubt that the plaintiff was pointing his gun at Richardson when Richardson shot him and that the wounds to the plaintiff's hands and arms occurred first, the injuries to the torso and back were suffered next as Pedigo turned and spiraled from the initial injuries, and the head wounds were inflicted last as the doctor was falling to the floor.

 

[Wise_A]

So many things. The first being that if one is useful, the other is not, and half your cartridges suck.

Seriously, this is the most overblown thread ever.