Some thoughts lately have me rethinking my carry loads.....

[ABPOS]

Overpenetration is a real risk when using FMJ for self defense. NYPD switched to JHP after having several instances of FMJ passing through people and injuring bystanders and other officers. I can think of 2 instances just off the top of my head where .45ACP FMJ went through the intended target's body and injured the person behind.

Also, as was already mentioned, people keep misinterpreting the 12-18" gel penetration guideline. The FBI came up with that guideline because, based on their research and those of others, such as Dr. Martin Fackler, a round that penetrates that depth in gel will penetrate deep enough in people, even with bone and other tissue types, to damage vital organs/systems.

Another point: generally speaking, handgun FMJs don't cause much damage. They typically leave narrow wound channels. It stretches tissue before punching through, then afterwards the tissue springs back, almost sealing the wound back up. A JHP, even one that doesn't expand, is going to cause more tissue disruption due to a "cookie cutter" effect. Where a FMJ may glance off a bone if it doesn't get a direct, straight-on shot, a JHP is going to be more likely to "bite" and damage the bone.

Regarding heavy clothing: Police agencies in the northern US have been using modern JHP against heavily-clothed attackers with good success. St. Paul, Minnesota PD uses the 147gr HST. Chicago PD and NYPD have both used the .38 Special SB-GDHP.

If you want to carry FMJ, that's your business. I personally see no reason to, unless your restricted by law (I'm thinking of NJ). The risks far outweigh any perceived benefits.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. The hole that the bullet goes in will leak. The blood vessels broken from the small wound track will not mend themselves back together after the bullet passes through. Yes, I understand a hollow point will do more tissue damage. And probably cause more bleeding. But as someone pointed out, a second hole wouldn't be a bad thing. If it had enough energy to make it out. And as someone mentioned, standard pressure HP's are not likely to do much, or expand much. And if they don't I'm skeptical that they would have sufficient penetration. Maybe in some cases. But I think they would lean towards under penetrating. Although it's all just talk until a certain set of circumstances actually presents itself. Which I pray it never does.

Plus, I know that this will probably get people in an uproar, but I'm not sure my main goal is to kill someone. I like the latest Lucky Gunner video posted with Claude Werner in it. He's talking about the goal for civilians is to break contact. Or basically stop the situation. That doesn't always mean, or hasn't always meant DRT. Military and Police may have different missions.

It may seem like I'm jumping on some kind of new wagon cuz of the internet, but it's something I agree with and have for a long time. I've carried FMJ's in my 9's before too. Because I was more interested in proper penetration because of all the things I cited. Size of person/ clothing/ bones. I've heard stories of some .38's and other guns actually not defeating a skull.

This guy just says a lot of good things better than I can. That I agree with.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wrong-about-pocket-pistols/

 

[fredj338]

I am not, nor claim to be, an expert on this, but I do like to think of myself as a "student" of this event, among others.

I think you really need to go back and research the events, etc., surrounding the "Miami shootout".

I think you will find the failure was NOT of ammunition, but of tactics.

At least that is how I see it.

As to the OP, you certainly can carry what you please, but I would NOT be carrying FMJ, in anything other then a .380 (or smaller), for a concealed carry handgun.

Just my honest opinion.

Well it was both. Early in the fight Platt was hit with an eventual fatal rd but the 115gr WSTHP did not reach his heart, which would have ended the fight sooner.

 

[fredj338]

I'm trying to stay away from Lead. I just don't to clean it out of the barrels. But yes, I'm not opposed to them. They may wound a bit better than FMJ. I'm not sure HOW much better though. Plus there's no way I'm attempting a reload with them. But I guess they wouldn't be a bad choice for the first 5. If I didn't mind cleaning the lead out.

Lead bullets don't lead if they fit the gun properly. If you handload for practice ammo, easily done. If not then practice with what ever you like. I would never consider ball ammo in anything unless I was forced to & then it would be a 45acp because the biggest hole I can make without expansion. Too much penetration & ricochet risks with ball ammo.

 

[ABPOS]

Since they were first introcuded late in the last century, there is almost always a 357 Magnum J-frame with me and it is always stuffed with Hornady's 140JHPs . . . but I live in Florida.

We do not have a winter clothing issue down here

Image courtesy of SurfingSantas.Org​

In a northern city like say Chicago, I would go to 158 JSPs in the winter time.

Much better penetration than the 125-140 JHPs but a little more expansion than the FMJs

All of that being said, the odds of a civilian getting into a firefight is probably a longer shot than winning the PowerBall while being struck by lightning and we are all just overthinking our scenarios

No matter what you finally end up carrying remember to practice, Practice, PRACTICE

That picture made me laugh.

 

[rwt1405]

Well it was both. Early in the fight Platt was hit with an eventual fatal rd but the 115gr WSTHP did not reach his heart, which would have ended the fight sooner.

Again, I suggest a re-visit to the "shootout", the failure was tactics, plain and simple.

To blame one round of ammo, for the failures that day, IMHO is a major mistake.

But hey, if that's what you want to believe, that's on you.

Best of luck to you, in your search.

 

[HCH]

FMJs may penetrate but do not do much tissue damage

 

[HardToHandle]

For years, in the Midwest, I would carry Soft Points in the cold months in my J Frame. Intent was extra penetration and avoiding plugged up holes.

In the wind-breaker or warmer weather months, I would carry hollow points. I switched up to Hornady Critical Defense a few years ago and stopped the practice.

Both shot close to aim.

 

[Gamecock]

'modern JHP'

The old ones didn't have magic.

ABPOS, you are on the right track. The problem with handguns is adequate penetration, not over penetration.

I carry hardcast wadcutters in my .38s, with FMJ in backup speed loader. 130 gr flatnose. It's all about the meplat.

You need a big caliber, .40 or .45, to deal with bone. Smaller stuff will be deflected. But sometimes smaller stuff is all you can practically carry.

 

[ContinentalOp]

'modern JHP'

The old ones didn't have magic.

No, but "modern JHP" are better designed and do a better job in balancing expansion and penetration than older rounds, and not just in gel.

 

[gjgalligan]

I'm trying to stay away from Lead. I just don't to clean it out of the barrels. But yes, I'm not opposed to them. They may wound a bit better than FMJ. I'm not sure HOW much better though. Plus there's no way I'm attempting a reload with them. But I guess they wouldn't be a bad choice for the first 5. If I didn't mind cleaning the lead out.

I would think having the stopping power you want is worth a little lead in your barrel or just try some coated bullets.

My winter coat has a .44spl with SWCs in the pocket.

 

[Gamecock]

No, but "modern JHP" are better designed and do a better job in balancing expansion and penetration than older rounds, and not just in gel.

That is utterly meaningless.

 

[URIT]

There seem to be multiple issues in the OP. First, the issue of too much or too little penetration. Second, rounds stopping ability. And third, wife's dislike for recoil.

The penetration argument through multiple layers of clothing using a short barrel firearm is handled excellently with these ballistic tests: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Most LEOs were trained to shoot more than one round at a suspect. I remember an FBI agent telling me in recruit school to fire at least two rounds at mass (torso).

I've learned through many shooting debriefings that we tend to shot where we have our eyes focused which is usually the other person's weapon.

I've always felt confident that a double tap to the chest will cause some serious hurt for the bad guy. Bone shards flying around the body cavity do as much damage as other pieces of matter introduced by the shooting.

I train with 6" paper plates and 3X5 cards to represent chest and head. 2 rounds to the plate and 1 to the 3X5. I also have a 1" black dot 2-inches off to the side and 4" down which I use as a focal point distraction in a P&A shoot sequence.

Lastly, to deal with dreaded recoil simply train with other guns or ammo and limit live fire with the CCW choice to only a handful of rounds to build confidence without a painful hand from firing a box of ammo.

I often carry a Walther PPS40 which is not a pleasant range gun, but I train with it everytime I go to the range. I may only fire one magazine of ammo, but I assure myself that I will hit what I am shooting at if forced to do so.

Experience has shown me that when we are defending ourselves, we are so pumped we don't feel the recoil.

 

[shawn mccarver]

This is going to sound all over the place. But maybe you guys can help make sense of it.....

I was in line at the Pharmacy and there was a guy there that was just huge. But not in a only fat kind of way. Not a body builder either. But in a, used to be bad to the bone but getting older kind of way. He was may be 35-40 and just looked like had a hard life. And even a bit sketchy so my defense meter was up. He was probably harmless and such but I've been burned before in the past just assuming the best in everyone around me. So I've become more wary. Anyways.... Not that I was profiling or anything. I was just being cautious. But what struck me was his size. His upper torso was just really big. I'm guessing if he lifted up his arms, side to side would been more than 24" and with his shoulders / arms down, a heck of a lot more. All of a sudden it just got me thinking about penetration.

Furthermore, it struck me that all the "viable" tests are done with gel and sometimes denim but if you're shooting at a torso, the likelihood of you hitting bone right off the bat is very good. And head shots too obviously.

And then to add insult to injury, it's starting to look a lot like... Well this year has been a weird year but suffice to say, winter is coming. And up here, it gets real cold a lot. So people wear thick jackets.

And I'm just like... a little overwhelmed by in a real life scenario in winter, if my .38's out of a snubby would actually work.

I think the answer is yes. And it's not the first time I've had this perspective but honestly, I want a round that is going to penetrate. WELL. A lot more well than everybodie's insistence on 12-18" sweet spot. Heck, I'd rather it lean towards 24". Cuz if it hits a bone, it's going to slow it down and it's not going to penetrate as deeply as it does in the tests of just gel. At least that's what I think.

But then the caveat is, I don't shoot +p's well in my 442. Some day I'd like a steel J frame, but money is tight. And beyond that, most of the +p's are rounds that will open up and will just slow down penetration anyways..... If I was going to shoot +p, I'd almost rather have a FMJ +p.

But what I've come to the conclusion is that I think I'm just going to start carrying vanilla ole FMJ. All the time. And maybe try to find some of the hotter FMJ rounds. I'm not really sure what that would be, because usually the FMJ stuff is loaded for practice and range. So they're not usually all that hot. The PMC and Winchster I've shot seem to fall into a pretty mild felt recoiling round. On the other hand, if they penetrate a lot better than any of the HP rounds, than it's kind of a win win.

So, if any of you guys have chronographed FMJ rounds with the same intent, to see what might be the hotter of them, I'm all ears. I'm also open to hearing your opinions. I know I can be kind of neurotic about this stuff and my thinking is sometimes off. And I understand WHY rounds are designed to not penetrate too far. I realize one that goes through a person could harm someone else. And I get that. But I feel like an FMJ round isn't likely to go through two sets of ribs and still be sailing out. In fact, I just watched a Paul Herrel video where he uses a set up to simulate a torso with ribs and oranges and pigs ears for skin. Etc. And none of the standard pressure rounds went through the T shirt on the back side. Although he did not test FMJ's. Just Hornady 125 XTP, 110 Critical Defense and one other load......

Now, the converse to all of this is I'm thinking about setting my wife up with my Detective Special and low recoiling rounds. Because I feel like it's better than a .22..... LOL. And even with wadcutters she didn't like the recoil.... Although she must just be better off with a .22.

Our friend Mas Ayoob used to go from the 9mm +P+ in summer to a deeper penetrating .45 in the winter on the theory that the .45 could penetrate deeper during those times of year when the bad guy might be wearing heavy clothing including winter coats, etc. He had it right, and it bears looking into by anyone interested in personal defense.

 

[federali]

Arming for the Exception

I too have occasionally run across a male so large that you would need a bulldozer to stop him. Yet, I'm not about to start carrying a .44 Magnum or larger handgun for the sheer discomfort of carrying a large handgun.

I would continue to use modern defense loads enjoying a good reputation. If you had to shoot someone, chances are he's in attack mode and squarely facing you. The bullet does not need to penetrate 12 or more inches to reach the vitals. Police have an entirely different need as, depending on circumstances, they may have to shoot from any angle and at far greater distances such as the 47-yard shot into the arm and chest of Mike Platt and which failed to stop him during the infamous Miami FBI shootout of 1986.. Thus, the FBI penetration protocol makes sense for LEOs but may not be as valid for the CCW.

 

[Wise_A]

As has already been states--use JHPs, and forget about the gel tests.

If you're concerned about the performance of .38 Spl JHPs, the solution isn't to switch to FMJs. Switch to a more potent cartridge, and/or a more capacious handgun.

Now, regarding some other stuff you said.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. The hole that the bullet goes in will leak. The blood vessels broken from the small wound track will not mend themselves back together after the bullet passes through.

In my opinion, a "stop" through blood loss is the least-desirable mechanism:

--The attacker is still likely dead, whereas him living is preferable.
--Bleeding to death is slow enough that, even mortally-wounded, he'll have plenty of time to kill you.

Plus, I know that this will probably get people in an uproar, but I'm not sure my main goal is to kill someone.

By using a less-effective round, that is exactly the end result you're promoting. The more hits you must inflict to achieve a "stop", the lower the subject's chances of survival.

Military and Police may have different missions.

They don't. I'll assume you're just ill-informed, and not actively trying to be offensive.

Police have the same goal--achieving either a "stop", or compliance. Suggesting otherwise is rather offensive.

 

[ABPOS]

As has already been states--use JHPs, and forget about the gel tests.

If you're concerned about the performance of .38 Spl JHPs, the solution isn't to switch to FMJs. Switch to a more potent cartridge, and/or a more capacious handgun.

Now, regarding some other stuff you said.



In my opinion, a "stop" through blood loss is the least-desirable mechanism:

--The attacker is still likely dead, whereas him living is preferable.
--Bleeding to death is slow enough that, even mortally-wounded, he'll have plenty of time to kill you.



By using a less-effective round, that is exactly the end result you're promoting. The more hits you must inflict to achieve a "stop", the lower the subject's chances of survival.



They don't. I'll assume you're just ill-informed, and not actively trying to be offensive.

Police have the same goal--achieving either a "stop", or compliance. Suggesting otherwise is rather offensive.

Well, you can blame Claude Werner for the suggestion. I suggest you watch the video. Whether or not I'm responsible for repeating what he said as a viable way to think of things, I guess you can blame me for that.

We're just talking here. We all can make our minds up and carry what we want. Not sure why that would be offensive. I promise I'm not trying to be. But I realize the suggestion was probably controversial. I'm definitely no expert on self defense and I apologize for offending you. But again, I'm repeating a theory by a Ex Military trainer that may have some wisdom more than I.

 

[F75gunslinger]

From everything I read, I'll stick to JHPs. They tend to do more damage when they open properly, and even if they clog with clothing they are still pretty much the same as a FMJ, so just as effective. If I am forced to shoot someone, I want the bullet to do as much damage as I can get. A handgun isn't the best means to that end,but I feel that going to a FMJ is a step in the wrong direction.

I also believe that over penetration is a major issue that should be considered. You may have to shoot someone, and as long as they are stopped and you were in the right for doing it, you should be in relatively good shape. Have a couple rounds go through an assailant and into others, and you are liable. A civil court case in that situation would probably bankrupt most people. I'd prefer to be alive and not responsible for another persons injuries.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Use a quality hollow point and practice targeting and hitting different areas of the body such as the pelvic area or high chest/low neck area.

 

[Duckford]

I am not, nor claim to be, an expert on this, but I do like to think of myself as a "student" of this event, among others.

I think you really need to go back and research the events, etc., surrounding the "Miami shootout".

I think you will find the failure was NOT of ammunition, but of tactics.

Except for the fact that Dove's bullet (the one that mortally wounded the bank robber but did not kill him fast enough) was on a b-line for the heart and stopped short. The fact is, Dove's ammunition choice DID get him killed that day. A better 9mm hollow point would have saved him, a 357 Magnum, a 45 ACP in hollow points would have saved him. Certainly the FBI agents that day made mistakes, but 9mm Luger fanbois work overtime to convince you that's all that was wrong and try to obscure the fact that the hollow point choice that day ended up with two dead FBI agents. That's a fact.

Its why the 12 inch minimum in gel tests is so important, and its good to see people concerned about it in their carry considerations. Bullets that can't hack it in a gel test aren't a smart choice, and when comparing apples to oranges in gel test results deeper is better. 18 inch is better than 12 inch, and the practice of some to judge everything by expansion and just sneaking over the 12 inch mark have potential holes in their theory and parameters. Especially the folks who "well, half the bullets made it to the 12 inch mark even if the other half didn't, and it expanded alright, let's go with it" or the far worse "well, even if 100% of the bullets failed the FBI penetration depth, I like the look of that gelly wound track". A handgun round that doesn't get deep enough to hit something of value is potentially worthless.

I made a video on the subject, and when you consider shot angles in human beings and various situations police and civilians defending themselves might find themselves in, 18 inches in some situations can be almost short. Put the attackers arms in the right place, and change how you stand or sit or are ont he ground after being knocked down, it might be a long way to the man's heart to change his mind.

Its one of the strongest points 45 ACP and 357 Magnum have with improvements in 9mm Luger. It isn't so much that 45 will expand larger with modern hollow points, its the fact it can penetrate deep with expanded bullets and do so very consistently. 357 Magnum wasn't always killing with magical high velocity damage that never existed, it succeeded because it consistently expanded (even back in the early days of hollow points where rates of bullets expanding as designed were sometimes very low) and punched deep. 10mm wasn't going to super outdamage 9mm, it was going to consistently out penetrate it, as well as have greater damage potential.

The guys carrying 148 grain wadcutters are a bit more on the ball than those carrying lightweight 38 hollow points that might actually expand and prevent proper penetration. Might be easy to criticize the men still carrying low power Keiths in their 44's and 45's, then again they have worked. Choose a good hollow point that has proof behind it, don't just buy magic beans, or buy hollow points that have poor performance just because 'hollow point", or buy hollow points for cartridges that can't use them properly, or light loads that can't use them.

Better safer than sorrier in these types of situations. Rare enough to use a firearm in self defense, it would be a shame to lose because you chose a poor load because of average odds.

 

[shouldazagged]

Damn, and I'm all out of popcorn.

And endurance.

I'll just carry what I've been carrying, and let you guys fight it out here. The chances of my needing to shoot anyone are minuscule. If I've chosen wrong, well, I've had a pretty good run.