I agree, meat tests are not uniform and not indicative of relative performance. For the test to be truly relevant, it would need to be performed on live animals, which is what the Strasbourg Goat test supposedly did... if those tests were actually conducted, which most people in-the-know have declared as a hoax. If it was a hoax, lots of people bought into it and it sold a lot of magazines and books.
SOMETHING TO REMEMBER WHEN WATCHING/READING ABOUT AMMO TESTINGS
- Thread starter chief38
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DWalt
Member
One need only read all of the methodology criticisms of the Marshall & Sanow "Stopping Power" books to realize that there are serious problems in relying on actual performance of various loads on living people.
It boils down to the importance of achieving adequate bullet penetration to reach vital areas combined with proper bullet placement. The rest doesn't mean a whole lot. A .25 ACP or .32 ACP FMJ bullet to the brain is far more effective than a .44 Magnum hit in the foot.
It boils down to the importance of achieving adequate bullet penetration to reach vital areas combined with proper bullet placement. The rest doesn't mean a whole lot. A .25 ACP or .32 ACP FMJ bullet to the brain is far more effective than a .44 Magnum hit in the foot.
M E Morrison
Member
Nonsense.
You will not get hydro-static shock at pistol velocities.
You can only get accuracy by aiming over the sights. You can only aim over this sights if you can extend your arm out. You can only extend your arm out if you are some distance from the assailant. If you are far enough away that you can raise and extend your arm, you are too far away to be shooting them.
Civilian pistol defensive shootings occur at extremely short range. Accuracy/shot placement is absurd.
At pistol velocities, all hollow points do is to limit penetration. The problem with pistols is ADEQUATE penetration. Taking steps to further limit penetration is the LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO. Pistols suck for personal defense. They are convenient, not adequate.
While I completely disagree with you, Firesticks, your beliefs are very widespread. Yours is the voice of orthodoxy. I agree with above posters: the best pistol ammo is wadcutters, or semiwadcutters. The bigger the meplat the better.
I'm not so sure....
....that if you offered the latest Nike special shoes as payment there would be young people lined up at the door and down the street.
They have to test in jello because every time they ask for volunteers to be shot to test the bullet performance they get no takers.
....that if you offered the latest Nike special shoes as payment there would be young people lined up at the door and down the street.
I put all that test info, field reports, autopsies, etc....
...in my head, pushed the 'start' button and came up with several good options that are regular ammo and don't break the bank. Generally they are large cavity hollow points.
...in my head, pushed the 'start' button and came up with several good options that are regular ammo and don't break the bank. Generally they are large cavity hollow points.
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Hydrostatic shock at handgun velocities is a myth.
MEs and ER doctors I talk to, autopsy reports and photos, recovered bullets I've seen, all suggest that hollow point expansion is dubious even at .357 velocity.
ElectroMotive
Member
The late Gene Wolberg with San Diego once had a long standing study on the comparisons of SDPD's 147gr Winchester Super-X JHP pulled from bodies of badguys, and the same load fired into ordnance grade gelatin. There results were near identical, I mean give or take a fraction of an inch.
Considering that the FBI-FTU and the Dept of Defense use that same type of gelatin for their large scale testing, well, it seems like its a pretty good indicator of what one can expect a bullet to do in human flesh.
Considering that the FBI-FTU and the Dept of Defense use that same type of gelatin for their large scale testing, well, it seems like its a pretty good indicator of what one can expect a bullet to do in human flesh.
Groo01
Member
Groo here
Having studded this more years than I care to state,
the first thing to remember is ---most modern SD loads are made
to the "FBI" spec.
Not to what a round "can"do.........
First except with some extreme examples, hand gun bullets have no hydro shock [2000fps+ needed]
Second , handgun bullets only damage what they hit.
Tissue is elastic and can move out of the way with little damage.
flat nose does better than round nose.
Jhp just makes a larger RN [which slows down quicker
Any energy NOT used to deform the JHP/JSP/HP/SP
is applied to the target [not the other way around!!!]
Stopping is different than killing
Accuricy is hitting the target where you need to when you need to.
It could be 25 yds if being shot at[you need sights]
or across the table, no sights needed if you can point your finger.
Hitting the target is KING [misses don't count]
Causing pain is Queen[if it doesn't hurt they don't know their hit and might give up]
After that all bets are off as the MK1A1 human is a product
of evolution and made to survive........
u
Having studded this more years than I care to state,
the first thing to remember is ---most modern SD loads are made
to the "FBI" spec.
Not to what a round "can"do.........
First except with some extreme examples, hand gun bullets have no hydro shock [2000fps+ needed]
Second , handgun bullets only damage what they hit.
Tissue is elastic and can move out of the way with little damage.
flat nose does better than round nose.
Jhp just makes a larger RN [which slows down quicker
Any energy NOT used to deform the JHP/JSP/HP/SP
is applied to the target [not the other way around!!!]
Stopping is different than killing
Accuricy is hitting the target where you need to when you need to.
It could be 25 yds if being shot at[you need sights]
or across the table, no sights needed if you can point your finger.
Hitting the target is KING [misses don't count]
Causing pain is Queen[if it doesn't hurt they don't know their hit and might give up]
After that all bets are off as the MK1A1 human is a product
of evolution and made to survive........
u
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Having dealt with a few that came out of dead people, I can attest that expansion varies widely . . .
BornToLooze
Member
The closest to ballistics testing I've done is shooting deer. All I've figured out is that when bullets hit bones they have a tendency to explode and make it look like a grenade when of in them. Other than 30.06, it doesn't care about bones.
Look up and read the Thompson/Leguard trials.......They shot cadavers, goats and such to test bullets.
The way they acquired and manipulated the data was the real problem.
