Sort of full auto

[MMSR]

I got my M&P AR 15 22 a two weeks ago. I was raining but went to the range anyway. I put 100 rounds through it. It worked great. Two days ago I went back to the range and ran 450 rounds through it. This time I had two rounds go off with one trigger pull. This happened three times during the 450 rounds. Smith wants me to send it back for repair. It took 9 weeks to get a mag for my 9mm M&P compact. I would like to shoot the AR again before the end of next summer. Any ideas were to get it fixed faster, I know I'll have to pay.

MMSR

 

[22steelshooter]

You do not want to mess around with a gun firing multiple rounds with one trigger pull. You now have an illegal machine gun, even if it is a mechanical failure. Send it back to Smith ASAP. They have been turning M&P15-22 around in about two weeks. They are your best bet by far. Just my .02

 

[27 Beck]

I got my M&P AR 15 22 a two weeks ago. I was raining but went to the range anyway. I put 100 rounds through it. It worked great. Two days ago I went back to the range and ran 450 rounds through it. This time I had two rounds go off with one trigger pull. This happened three times during the 450 rounds. Smith wants me to send it back for repair. It took 9 weeks to get a mag for my 9mm M&P compact. I would like to shoot the AR again before the end of next summer. Any ideas were to get it fixed faster, I know I'll have to pay.

MMSR

The 15-22 takes any AR15 trigger. You can put a Rock River, DPMS or whatever drop in trigger in your gun.

You can also send it back to S&W at their expense. Turn around on these rifles has been averaging two weeks or less.

Have you cleaned the gun? These .22s tend to get dirty fast, maybe you have some build up in the trigger area.

I'd offer to trade triggers with you, but the Fed kinda frowns on full auto without a stamp.

 

[MMSR]

Thanks for the replys, I guess the best thing is to send it back Smith.

 

[Lynn]

Now I am not absolutely sure mind you, but I think I may have had one incident of accidental bump fire. It was the first time I fired it, and maybe I am imagining things. It has not happened since, and I did very thoroughly clean the entire rifle and lubricate it. So should I change trigger modules or send it in or something? I am not even certain that it happened. I most definitely do not want to mess with the BATF. They would scare any sane person.

 

[Pisgah]

Now I am not absolutely sure mind you, but I think I may have had one incident of accidental bump fire. It was the first time I fired it, and maybe I am imagining things. It has not happened since, and I did very thoroughly clean the entire rifle and lubricate it. So should I change trigger modules or send it in or something? I am not even certain that it happened. I most definitely do not want to mess with the BATF. They would scare any sane person.

If you're not even really sure it happened, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's happening with any regularity, I would get it to S&W ASAP and tell them to keep it as long as they want, but FIX IT! I' d also document the whole transaction and test the gun thoroughly as soon as I got it back. As ridiculous as it seems, and IS, a situation like this can mean serious legal consequences.

 

[Thomas_H]

Honestly, I don't think this rifle has enough recoil for bump fire. Combine that with the heavy trigger pull, and boatload of creep, it's very unlikely that it bumpfired. Not to mention the reset is too long. If it did in fact fire more than one round on a single trigger pull, there is only three basic possibilities.

1. you experienced a slam fire. While this should not happen on this rifle since the firing pin is pretty heavily sprung (not free floating like a real AR). I suppose that a piece of debris on the bolt face, or around the mouth of the chamber could set off a round if it hit just right. But that's not likely either.

2. Hammer Follow/Trigger disconnector failure. If the disconnector fails to engage the hammer when the bolt goes back, or the bolt does not travel rearward enough to make the hammer engage the disconnector (but I don't think this is possible on the 15-22) the hammer will follow the bolt forward and could still hit the firing pin hard enough to ignite the round. It's very possible with a .22 LR that the disconnector is fouled enough to bind up and not engage the hammer when it comes back.

3. I just had to go after my 1 year old who was trying to feed her dinner to the dogs, so I lost my train of thought and can't remember the third possibility.

Regardless of the reason, it is a condition that you really don't want to mess around with. If your rifle doubles, you need to stop and find out why. There are very serious consequences if you knowingly allow this condition to exist on any firearm.

 

[Lynn]

If you're not even really sure it happened, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's happening with any regularity, I would get it to S&W ASAP and tell them to keep it as long as they want, but FIX IT! I' d also document the whole transaction and test the gun thoroughly as soon as I got it back. As ridiculous as it seems, and IS, a situation like this can mean serious legal consequences.

Thank you for your good advice. Yes indeed, I have heard that BATF agents are a bunch of serious minded, no nonsense type guys, and they are rather rules are rules about "just this sort of thing".

I am thinking about a Rock River two stage. You can be sure, if it ever does happen to my rifle, I would disassemble the entire rifle until I dropped in a new trigger. Short of that I would send it right in pronto. No problem there.

So hey there you BATF guys. Now don't be worried about me having a machine gun. Honestly now. I don't even want one. It might be fun to fire one of yours just once though. If that would be OK and all.

 

[Lynn]

Honestly, I don't think this rifle has enough recoil for bump fire. Combine that with the heavy trigger pull, and boatload of creep, it's very unlikely that it bumpfired. Not to mention the reset is too long. If it did in fact fire more than one round on a single trigger pull, there is only three basic possibilities.

1. you experienced a slam fire. While this should not happen on this rifle since the firing pin is pretty heavily sprung (not free floating like a real AR). I suppose that a piece of debris on the bolt face, or around the mouth of the chamber could set off a round if it hit just right. But that's not likely either.

2. Hammer Follow/Trigger disconnector failure. If the disconnector fails to engage the hammer when the bolt goes back, or the bolt does not travel rearward enough to make the hammer engage the disconnector (but I don't think this is possible on the 15-22) the hammer will follow the bolt forward and could still hit the firing pin hard enough to ignite the round. It's very possible with a .22 LR that the disconnector is fouled enough to bind up and not engage the hammer when it comes back.

3. I just had to go after my 1 year old who was trying to feed her dinner to the dogs, so I lost my train of thought and can't remember the third possibility.

Regardless of the reason, it is a condition that you really don't want to mess around with. If your rifle doubles, you need to stop and find out why. There are very serious consequences if you knowingly allow this condition to exist on any firearm.

Well thank you for that. I am greatly relieved. I wasn't sure if it happened at the time or not. I was worried about such a possibility though, because I had just read an article about some poor guy who was booked by the BATF over this very thing. Gosh, the nwo is a hoot, ya?

 

[ajpelz]

I think you should send it back to Smith. It will not cost you any money, and it will get fixed correctly.

That said, if you want an interesting read of a Supreme Court Case on this type of thing, check out

Staples v. United States, 511 U.S. 600 (1994).

This is the Staples v. U.S. case heard by the Supreme Court in 1994. Basically, it was decided that a person must KNOWINGLY possess a machine gun in order to be in violation of the statute. Not to say a malfunction cannot be a violation, but the possessor must have knowledge that when he/she pulls the trigger, more than one round will fire.

ATF can say what it wants, but NO ONE can overrule Supreme Court decisions, except for the Supreme Court itself.

 

[Lynn]

If you are addressing me, ajpeiz, and not the OP. I am definitely thinking of doing that, even though I doubt it has happened to my rifle. Now if I ever do, have an instance of bump fire, then I surely will do so immediately.

Here is why.

Owner of broken rifle surrenders for 30-month sentence

 

[Peter J.]

Hey MMSR, now that it has been announced that you have a potential full-auto situation, you must send it back to S&W just to cover your self. Don't try to fix it at home. You will now need to show that you have taken official corrective action by sending it back to the manufacturer.

 

[Lynn]

More on the David Olofson case.

Family Continues to Need Your Help After Adverse Court Ruling

[excerpted from above linked to article at GOA]



On May 1, 2009, a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit affirmed David Olofson's conviction for the unlawful transfer of a machine gun. All that Olofson — an Army Reservist and resident of Berlin, Wisconsin — did was loan his semi-automatic AR-15 to an acquaintance who took it to a shooting range where — acting contrary to Olofson's express instructions — the acquaintance rotated the rifle's safety out of either the "safe" or "fire" positions into an "unmarked" position, pulled the trigger, and the rifle fired three or four shots and then jammed.

At trial, the Government had insisted that any weapon that fired more than one shot at the single pull of the trigger — "no matter what the cause" — is a machine gun and that, since Olofson knew that his AR-15 would misfire on occasion if put in the unmarked position, then he knew that the AR-15 has all the essential characteristics of a fully automatic weapon.

Despite the fact that the prosecution's definition of a machine gun directly conflicted with the Supreme Court's statement in the Staples case — that to be a machine gun a weapon must be proved to shoot more than one shot at the single pull of a trigger UNTIL THE TRIGGER IS RELEASED OR THE AMMUNITION IN THE MAGAZINE IS EXHAUSTED — the three-judge appellate panel decided that the Supreme Court's description of a fully automatic weapon was "not an accurate statement of the law."

So you see, ajpeiz, the times they are a changing.


Do our 15-22s, auto fire, if the safety is mis-set like that? I sure hope not. I bet that would damage the mechanism too.

 

[ajpelz]

If you are addressing me, ajpeiz, and not the OP. I am definitely thinking of doing that, even though I doubt it has happened to my rifle. Now if I ever do, have an instance of bump fire, then I surely will do so immediately.

Here is why.

Owner of broken rifle surrenders for 30-month sentence

It was aimed at the OP, but the info is good for all. If you are not even sure that it did happen, and you know without a doubt it has not happened since you had the doubt, I would guess you are fine. It is when it becomes even remotely regular and predictable when someone would have knowledge of the multiple fires per trigger pull and potentially a serious problem.

Every instance that I have heard of involving multiple fires where someone got in trouble is because they did not fix it. They thought, "Hey, this is neat..." And told their buddies, "hey, check this out... look what I can do"

I remember reading about the story you linked when it happened. If I remember correctly, that guy let his gun multi-fire at least 3 or 4 times in a row with no attempt to resolve the issue. The first multiple fire put him on notice thus giving him knowledge. The second, third and fourth multiple fires (without attempting to resolve the issue) is where the statute was violated. It also did not help that he had been a thorn in the ATF's side for a long time. He could have been sentenced to 10 years...

FWIW, if I ever encountered a double fire or slamfire, I would not attempt to shoot the gun anymore. Something is obviously not right. I would disassemble the weapon completely and thoroughly clean it. I would then test for function. If it ever happened again, it would be off to a professional gunsmith for repair, with a paper trial for evidence the entire way. Just my .02

 

[ajpelz]

More on the David Olofson case.

Family Continues to Need Your Help After Adverse Court Ruling

[excerpted from above linked to article at GOA]



On May 1, 2009, a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit affirmed David Olofson's conviction for the unlawful transfer of a machine gun. All that Olofson — an Army Reservist and resident of Berlin, Wisconsin — did was loan his semi-automatic AR-15 to an acquaintance who took it to a shooting range where — acting contrary to Olofson's express instructions — the acquaintance rotated the rifle's safety out of either the "safe" or "fire" positions into an "unmarked" position, pulled the trigger, and the rifle fired three or four shots and then jammed.

At trial, the Government had insisted that any weapon that fired more than one shot at the single pull of the trigger — "no matter what the cause" — is a machine gun and that, since Olofson knew that his AR-15 would misfire on occasion if put in the unmarked position, then he knew that the AR-15 has all the essential characteristics of a fully automatic weapon.

Despite the fact that the prosecution's definition of a machine gun directly conflicted with the Supreme Court's statement in the Staples case — that to be a machine gun a weapon must be proved to shoot more than one shot at the single pull of a trigger UNTIL THE TRIGGER IS RELEASED OR THE AMMUNITION IN THE MAGAZINE IS EXHAUSTED — the three-judge appellate panel decided that the Supreme Court's description of a fully automatic weapon was "not an accurate statement of the law."

So you see, ajpeiz, the times they are a changing.


Do our 15-22s, auto fire, if the safety is mis-set like that? I sure hope not. I bet that would damage the mechanism too.

What I do see that does not contradict the Staples case, or my point, is that fact that,
"since Olofson knew that his AR-15 would misfire on occasion if put in the unmarked position, then he knew that the AR-15 has all the essential characteristics of a fully automatic weapon."

 

[Lynn]

It was aimed at the OP, but the info is good for all. If you are not even sure that it did happen, and you know without a doubt it has not happened since you had the doubt, I would guess you are fine.

I sure hope so. I bet there are BATF agents here upon occasion, just doing their jobs and all, and if so would one of you please PM me and clue me about this? I do not want any trouble with you guys. Thank you. I promise to be discrete.

It is when it becomes even remotely regular and predictable when someone would have knowledge of the multiple fires per trigger pull and potentially a serious problem.

Every instance that I have heard of involving multiple fires where someone got in trouble is because they did not fix it. They thought, "Hey, this is neat..." And told their buddies, "hey, check this out... look what I can do"

Yes, I can see your point there.

I remember reading about the story you linked when it happened. If I remember correctly, that guy let his gun multi-fire at least 3 or 4 times in a row with no attempt to resolve the issue. The first multiple fire put him on notice thus giving him knowledge. The second, third and fourth multiple fire (without attempting to resolve the issue) is where the statute was violated. It also did not help that he had been a thorn in the ATF's side for a long time. He could have been sentenced to 10 years...

That's a whole different horse there. I hate to see anybody, for any reason, distort the facts to suit their agenda, and to me it looks like GOA may be doing so regarding this.

FWIW, if I ever encountered a double fire or slamfire, I would not attempt to shoot the gun anymore. Something is obviously not right. I would disassemble the weapon completely and thoroughly clean it. I would then test for function. If it ever happened again, it would be off to a professional gunsmith for repair, with a paper trial for evidence the entire way. Just my .02

It seems we think alike about that. I would do the same.

Thank you for your help with this.

 

[Thomas_H]

The reason Olofson got convicted was because he bragged about the malfunction to other people. And then loaned the rifle to another person knowing full well the problem was not fixed.

The reason that the case is so controversial is that 1. he was not the person shooting the weapon at the time of the malfunction. 2. he was not charged with possession of a machine gun, he was charged with the illegal transfer of a machine gun. 3. the BATFE's lab originally declared that it was NOT a machine gun, and the agent in charge of the case told them to retest, and dictated a specific load with specific primers known to be soft, and the second time it was declared a machine gun. Olofson was never allowed to have his own expert witnesses to examine the rifle.

Why did they charge him with transferring a machine gun? My guess is they would have never been able to get a simple possession charge to stick. But giving a firearm to someone else to try (with intent to sell) knowing it had the potential to double/triple etc. was alot harder for him to defend.

My personal take is Olofson was an idiot to brag about how his rifle would malfunction, and that the BATFE wanted to make an example out of him. And they did. I could rant about this for numerous pages, so instead, I'll just say this.

If your rifle doubles, or goes FA on you, do not post it on the internet. The only person you should talk to is the manufacturer or your gunsmith to get the problem resolved.

oh, and I just remembered the 3rd valid reason a firearm can go full auto on you. "Cook-Off". Where the chamber is so hot, that it literally ignites the charge in the shell from just the heat alone. While this is not uncommon in some older military machine guns, it's next to impossible to have it happen in a .22 LR.

 

[MMSR]

I did contact Smith and they are sending me the info to send it back to them. As soon as it gets here, it out of here.

MMSR

 

[n4zov]

If a gun owner gets in a legal hassle with the BATF and "wins" it will probably cost him everything he has or will even have to defend himself. Those guys have unlimited legal resources and tax dollars to prosecute gun owners, and we have whatever we have managed to accumulate on our own. It is definitely a lose-lose situation regardless of the outcome and that isn't even considering damage to your reputation.

 

[Lynn]

Good point n4zov.