Spring upgrade controversy

[PeterPocket]

In the beginning, there was only the Apex Tactical trigger spring kit for the Sigma, and then also for its successors, the SW9/40, SW9/40VE, the SD9/40 & SD9/40VE. Apex insists a lighter sear spring was required for the Sigma, but for the current SD VE line, they claim their spring kit is now designed with the stock sear spring in mind (as in "leave it be").

Then, along came Galloway Precision and designed a very similar-looking trigger spring kit that does come with a lighter sear spring which they insist is a MUST item for their system to function correctly.

Fine and dandy. Umpteen Youtube videos have been made about the how the Apex spring trigger mod improved the feel of their SD VE's. Finding ones for the Galloway upgrade...eh, haven't found any yet.

But, to sear or not to sear is not the only question plaguing heavy-use SD owners who have reported some premature wear on their replacement striker springs.

Other users have questioned the wisdom of replacing the stock striker spring given how important it is to have a working firing pin each and every time if you intend on using the SD VE for home defense or self-defense.

They may have a valid point.

I've decided to replace my plastic guide rod & recoil spring unit with a stainless steel replacement from Galloway as Apex does not offer one. However, about six months ago, I discovered that Wolff springs also sells replacement stainless steel guide rods for the 4" barrel Sigma/SW/SD series, but with the recoil springs sold separately - as in uncaptured.

Wolff offers one other spring weight that Galloway does not. Besides the stock weight of 17#, Wolff sells an 18# spring, along with the 20# and 22# springs that Galloway also sells.

Now, here comes the punchline.

With every recoil spring that Wolff sells which is heavier than the 17# stock weight, they include, for free, a heavier striker spring: something Galloway does not.

Where they agree is in their similar caveats for the lighter 15# spring:

Galloway says "for light loads only" and Wolff says (in big bold letters) "for competition use only - not for duty use."


Also, the reverse is not the case for the 15# spring - that is, Wolff does not send a lighter weight striker spring with it.

On the face of it, it would seem that leaving in the stock striker spring when doing a trigger spring upgrade has some merit to it.

So, before I do anything, I'd like to hear from the membership on the striker spring issue: keep it stock or opt for the lighter spring?

Also, feel free to chime in if you installed Galloway's kit and feel that swapping out the sear spring really is necessary or just a good idea.

One last issue:

Captured spring and guide rod versus uncaptured spring and guide rod?

If there is no downside to using an uncaptured spring - with the possible increased risk of losing it - a big advantage of it is the ability to buy a couple of springs of different weights (with the extra striker springs). The guide rods sell for $25 and the recoil springs sell for $8 (keep in mind that they come with a heavier striker spring, too).

That's $32 vs. $30 for Galloway with the added features of the Wolff more than offsets the extra two bucks.

My take on it is, if you plan on running +P ammo through your SD, I would opt for a heavier recoil spring and matching heavier striker spring. It will make it harder to rack but mitigate the recoil & muzzle flip a lot more.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

 

[ou1954]

In the beginning, there was only the Apex Tactical trigger spring kit for the Sigma, and then also for its successors, the SW9/40, SW9/40VE, the SD9/40 & SD9/40VE. Apex insists a lighter sear spring was required for the Sigma, but for the current SD VE line, they claim their spring kit is now designed with the stock sear spring in mind (as in "leave it be").

(snip)

So, before I do anything, I'd like to hear from the membership on the striker spring issue: keep it stock or opt for the lighter spring?

YOUR THOUGHTS?

If you EVER use a SD model for self defense, any mods you might make would be used against you in court.

Here is an important post about trigger mods. It has a link to a second article. Check it out-

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

The above is a link to another post on this forum. It, in turn, contains a link to an article in a legal forum. It says guns, ammo, modifications, and even reloads will be investigated.

If you have an SD simply for target shooting I suppose anything is open, unless, of course, you need to send your gun back to S&W.

 

[madracr07]

Now I am second guessing having the apex spring kit and trigger installed in mine yesterday. I paid $81.00 to have it done, and it feels great when I dry fired it. I am planning on trying it out tomorrow, as we are having my birthday party at the shooting range, and we are expecting 40 people with guns.
I truly hope I didnt screw mine up. I will have to pay someone else to put it back together again.

 

[MOONDAWG]

The trigger mod vs. civil/criminal liability issue has a lot to do with where you live.

Historically, in my area of the deep south, whether or not the shooting was "justified" is the major issue; gun modifications and or ammo used are not.

Each to their own, but reliability is paramount to me and I go along with the leave it "stock" and shoot the hell out of it crowd.

 

[OKFC05]

Captured spring and guide rod versus uncaptured spring and guide rod?

The most important consideration in a recoil spring is to use the flat-wound spring instead of the old-style round piano wire spring, as the flat-wound is more reliable and lasts far longer.

Having used the Sigmas for loaners and trainers for over a decade, I settled on only using the stock recoil spring assemblies, with the superior ISMI flat wound springs. Since I look at the recoil spring each time I clean the gun, I can spot any incipient chipping in the polymer guide rod and simply drop in a new $10 stock assembly.
I have never had one fail in service, and they typically last for many years.

I tried one of the lighter striker springs and found it getting failures to fire on some ammunition; only factory ammo for classes. I stick to stock.

If you care, I am unimpressed by the current frenzy on putting aftermarket parts in every semi-auto, especially if the goal is to compensate for lack of technique and training. I shoot an M&P Pro in IDPA and USPSA Production, and am glad I bought it already set up rather than buying a cheaper gun and then spending the cost of the gun again trying to turn it into a Pro.

 

[scwv67]

Agree with the above. If someone feels a new pistol needs a lot of mods to make it right for them, then IMO they're buying the wrong pistol.

Where are you buying the stock recoil assembly? It was my understanding S&W won't even sell a lot parts for either the SD or M&P series to armorers, much less the unwashed.

 

[OKFC05]

Where are you buying the stock recoil assembly? It was my understanding S&W won't even sell a lot parts for either the SD or M&P series to armorers, much less the unwashed.

Brownells, Midway, and others list several parts for these pistols. They are not all available, and the ones that are go in and out of stock from week to week. I have had no problems getting trigger springs, recoil springs, and striker assemblies. Just put a new striker assembly in my M&P Pro 5"; the tip of the striker chipped after over 30,000 rounds.

 

[ou1954]

I'm staying with stock except for the barrel stop/takedown lever, where I put in one a mm longer. Makes takedown quick and easy for me.

On a related subject, there have been a lot of posts about putting in a metal guide rod because folks say the plastic one bends. How do you go about observing a bend in that rod?

Thanks-

 

[ou1954]

The trigger mod vs. civil/criminal liability issue has a lot to do with where you live.

Historically, in my area of the deep south, whether or not the shooting was "justified" is the major issue; gun modifications and or ammo used are not.

Each to their own, but reliability is paramount to me and I go along with the leave it "stock" and shoot the hell out of it crowd.

I agree but when I posted that link I had in mind a couple of cases in which the defense was that the gun went off "by accident" and the forensic folks found the shooters had reduced the trigger pull to a couple of pounds.

 

[3hounds]

I returned my striker spring back to stock after installing the apex lighter spring.

I was having miss fires with more than 1 type of ammo, not so with the stock weight spring.

3

 

[JWH321]

I returned my striker spring back to stock after installing the apex lighter spring.

I was having miss fires with more than 1 type of ammo, not so with the stock weight spring.

3

Same here. I have Apex trigger springs, a Galloway recoil spring, but after having used several aftermarket striker springs, I went back to the original. I have had no issues with it. I had light strikes with the others. This has been true with factory ammo as well as my handloads with CCI primers.

 

[d1g1c1d3]

Did the Apex spring and polymer trigger on my SW40VE. Didn't like it and added lighter sear spring. Got the pull down to around 6lb average with 0 issues. Got the SD9VE and only changes made to it have been swapping polymer trigger over, 18lb stainless guide rod and TruGlo sights.

 

[PeterPocket]

So easy, Godzilla could do it?>

I decided to swap out JUST the trigger spring and leave everytthing else stock. The 8lb pull needs to be lightened because of how worn out my finger gets - thanks to it being injured by a Sig Sauer P250.

A 5.5 lb or 6lb pull would make a noticable difference after a day at the range.

NOW, guess what. The pin holding in the trigger control unit will not budge! I have watched every video on replacing the trigger return spring which begins by removing the pin from left to right and not right to left as many in the videos recommended. No dice.

NOT for me. It did not matter which side I tried to push out the pin. It would not move a millimeter.

As you will see in my annotated photo below, what aree the issues with the pin as wekkl as the issues I was having with the takedown lever.


Now, as per the YouTube instructions, I started off gently, using the slave pin that came with the kit, to try and push the pin out. Then, I took my plastic coated, two-headed hammer to try and lightly tap it through. No deal. I hity it harder. Nothing.


I took out my punch pins and tried the 1/16" on the inside of the pin. No movement. Then, I went up to the 1/8" pin and placed it squarely over the top of the min.


Again, to no avail, either. I did not want to hit it too hard and risj breaking something.


But, it comes out so easily in the videos and I don't know how given what I am about to show you.

Frankly, I don't see how the pin can be taken out with the open hooked end of the trigger spring inside the deep and wide groove located at the middle of the pin. The hooked end of the slide release spring is also in a groove, but a much shallower one.

From what I can see, tapping on the pin is supposed to get the trigger spring hook to jump right up and over the edge of the groove, and then be dragged along the rest of the pin from the edge of the groove to the physical end of the pin.

What am I missing here? It seems like the spring hook needs to be pulled up and over the edge of the groove and onto the surface of the pin itself.

Notice the Trigger spring hooked around the middle of the pin. But, the pin seems to be stuck inside the frame holes. The pulling tension being applied to the pin does not help the situation. I can see how the magazine pin can be bypassed, but not the trigger spring.


It's almost like someone put Loc-tite or Super-Glue on the pin - it is that tightly stuck in the frame.


Well, I'm open to suggestions before I seek out a gunsmith.

 

[Big Stick]

I decided to swap out JUST the trigger spring and leave everytthing else stock. The 8lb pull needs to be lightened because of how worn out my finger gets - thanks to it being injured by a Sig Sauer P250.

A 5.5 lb or 6lb pull would make a noticable difference after a day at the range.

NOW, guess what. The pin holding in the trigger control unit will not budge! I have watched every video on replacing the trigger return spring which begins by removing the pin from left to right and not right to left as many in the videos recommended. No dice.

NOT for me. It did not matter which side I tried to push out the pin. It would not move a millimeter.

As you will see in my annotated photo below, what aree the issues with the pin as wekkl as the issues I was having with the takedown lever.


Now, as per the YouTube instructions, I started off gently, using the slave pin that came with the kit, to try and push the pin out. Then, I took my plastic coated, two-headed hammer to try and lightly tap it through. No deal. I hity it harder. Nothing.


I took out my punch pins and tried the 1/16" on the inside of the pin. No movement. Then, I went up to the 1/8" pin and placed it squarely over the top of the min.


Again, to no avail, either. I did not want to hit it too hard and risj breaking something.


But, it comes out so easily in the videos and I don't know how given what I am about to show you.

Frankly, I don't see how the pin can be taken out with the open hooked end of the trigger spring inside the deep and wide groove located at the middle of the pin. The hooked end of the slide release spring is also in a groove, but a much shallower one.

From what I can see, tapping on the pin is supposed to get the trigger spring hook to jump right up and over the edge of the groove, and then be dragged along the rest of the pin from the edge of the groove to the physical end of the pin.

What am I missing here? It seems like the spring hook needs to be pulled up and over the edge of the groove and onto the surface of the pin itself.

Notice the Trigger spring hooked around the middle of the pin. But, the pin seems to be stuck inside the frame holes. The pulling tension being applied to the pin does not help the situation. I can see how the magazine pin can be bypassed, but not the trigger spring.


It's almost like someone put Loc-tite or Super-Glue on the pin - it is that tightly stuck in the frame.


Well, I'm open to suggestions before I seek out a gunsmith.

Having been a past owner of Sigma, I can offer some sage wisdom and advice. I had several issues with mine. I will say the trigger was not the best. The loctite like coating on those pins is there for 2 reasons: to secure the pins, and to provide an anti-tamper indicator to the factory if you modify the trigger, and then send it in on warranty. I was told this by a gunsmith.

If you really want to spend the money for a better trigger, better spring/rod assembly, you may be better off keeping your money, selling the Sigma, and buying a M&P platform, which has a better trigger, etc, and is a much better pistol, IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ou1954]

I don't modify my guns but do have to deal with stubborn old car parts.

If you are not concerned about beauty, consider rotating the pin by grabbing it at an unimportant place with some high quality needle nose pliers. Sometimes you can wrap a place with masking tape and save the surface while still getting a good grip.

Alternatively, there are several solvents for locktite, and you might find one that doesn't affect the polymer frame. I came across one when dealing with MB hydraulic cylinders but would have to look it up.

 

[AnthemBassMan]

Try moving the slide stop up and down while pushing on the right hand side of the pin. Maybe even pushing it towards the front of the frame. I can get mine to pop out in about 15-20 seconds. The hole in the slide stop is hung up in the shallow groove cut into the trigger pin. I'll be installing my Apex spring kit when I get home from work today...

L8R,
Matt

 

[brchambersjr]

Do you have the sear assembly unpinned and pulled up and out of the frame? This will relieve the tension from the trigger return spring and make it a lot easier to remove the trigger pin. As AnthemBassMan said, wiggle the slide stop/release around to free it from the groove that it rests in on the pin while pushing the pin with a punch. It should eventually find the sweet spot in the hole on the slide stop/release and push on out,

The labeling on your picture is almost correct except for two things. The u-shaped part is actually steel reinforcement molded in the frame for the rails and the part that you are referring to as the magazine release spring is actually the slide stop/release spring.

Bill

 

[JWH321]

Do you have the sear assembly unpinned and pulled up and out of the frame? This will relieve the tension from the trigger return spring and make it a lot easier to remove the trigger pin. As AnthemBassMan said, wiggle the slide stop/release around to free it from the groove that it rests in on the pin while pushing the pin with a punch. It should eventually find the sweet spot in the hole on the slide stop/release and push on out,

The labeling on your picture is almost correct except for two things. The u-shaped part is actually steel reinforcement molded in the frame for the rails and the part that you are referring to as the magazine release spring is actually the slide stop/release spring.

Bill

You are also confused about the slide lock. What you have labeled as the slide lock is actually the take down lever. Perhaps just semantics, but it is possible that you need to revisit how everything actually works prior to disassembling it. That understanding is vital to correct reassembly.

 

[PeterPocket]

I tried wiggling everything except twerking

Try moving the slide stop up and down while pushing on the right hand side of the pin. Maybe even pushing it towards the front of the frame. I can get mine to pop out in about 15-20 seconds. The hole in the slide stop is hung up in the shallow groove cut into the trigger pin. I'll be installing my Apex spring kit when I get home from work today...

L8R,
Matt

I think that I'm going to once again retry the conventional methods, then follow that up with more wiggling and jiggling. If nothing moves, then it's off to spray some Break Free, Silicone spray, or Deep Creep on the pins and let it soak in and around it.

As a last resort, I'll do what I was tempted to do - that being to use a small, needle-nose pliers with gorilla taped on its ends to bend the curled end of the spring enough to clear the pin - but not so much as it cannot be reattached and bent back.

Worthy of note is that Apex Tactical's YouTube video is working on an SD9 and NOT an SD9VE. THere are notable differences between the two.

I had no trouble popping out the rear pin holding the sear housing - pulling the sear housing up and out was also fairly easy - but not replacing it.

It would be so nice to know where and on top of what the housing sits. Is there a groove on the inside or a platform into which the housing slides?

I did manage to wiggle it back in, BTW.

 

[PeterPocket]

Check my labeling. Then check Glock's. Methinks you're the confused one

You are also confused about the slide lock. What you have labeled as the slide lock is actually the take down lever. Perhaps just semantics, but it is possible that you need to revisit how everything actually works prior to disassembling it. That understanding is vital to correct reassembly.

As per my first annotated image, I knew it was the spring for the slide release, but don't know why I called it a magazine release (other than I had just talked about ambidextrous mag releases elsewhere).

Also, I searched but could not find an exploded diagram of the SD9 VE and did not know that the red U-shaped metal is a frame support. Thanks for that info.

Now, as per JWH321's comments, I certainly found plenty of Glock exploded diagrams that call our takedown lever a "slide lock," and I do believe the takedown video also makes mention of the different labels used for the same object.

SO, what does GLOCK call the takedown lever (Part #21)?

And, what does GLOCK call the leaf spring under the takedown lever (Part #20)?

Alrighty then. Here's my corrected annotations of the TAKEDOWN LEVER and the U-SHAPED FRAME SUPPORT: