treerat
Member
can you use 45 acp WITHOUT moon clips in a 625 smith? is the chamber so designed to headspace off the mouth of the case or the moon clip?
stupid question about 625
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diamonback68
US Veteran
Yup, just carry a pencil or a 1/4" wooden dowel works good too.
45Wheelgun
Member
This is true with 625-3's but at some point it stops being true. I'm just not sure which dash number it is. So not all 625's can be shot without moonclips.
I could be mistaken but I believe all modern S&W .45 ACP revolvers headspace on the case mouth, probably from after WWII on, and likely some time before that. All my .45s, including a 1955 Target from 1956, headspace on the case mouth.
I had a model 625-8 that would fail to fire without moon clips.
It was hit or miss whether they they would fire or not. I never shoot factory ammo and some of the problem could have been my reloads. Maybe different brass length. I never judge a gun shooting less than factory ammo.
It was hit or miss whether they they would fire or not. I never shoot factory ammo and some of the problem could have been my reloads. Maybe different brass length. I never judge a gun shooting less than factory ammo.
Coastie762
US Veteran
My 5-screw 1955 Target has chambers properly cut to permit firing .45 ACP cases without moon clips; as noted above they just need to be picked or pushed out separately.
My recently purchased 625-8 has chambers cut too deep to allow this. I checked with a .45 ACP case, the chambers were cut so deep that I do not think the firing pin would hit the primer. Luckily it fires just fine with moon clips or .45 AR brass...
My recently purchased 625-8 has chambers cut too deep to allow this. I checked with a .45 ACP case, the chambers were cut so deep that I do not think the firing pin would hit the primer. Luckily it fires just fine with moon clips or .45 AR brass...
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sixpointfive
US Veteran
I always shoot 625-8 without moon clips. Just tip the gun up and the cases fall out, the ones that don't I use my finger nail to easily remove them. When I am shooting I see no reason to load moon clips, shoot, then unload moon clips just to load another and so on. Just load the gun directly, shoot empy and reload the gun. I find the moon clips just a pain in the rear.
All the older 25-2's I have shot will fire without clips.
My 325 NG will shoot most of the time without clips with Remington 230 Golden Saber or 230gr Ball. However with most other ammo it will not shoot at all with out the clips...
My 325 NG will shoot most of the time without clips with Remington 230 Golden Saber or 230gr Ball. However with most other ammo it will not shoot at all with out the clips...
scooter123
Member
That is because you don't have ENOUGH moon clips. I would recomend having a minimum of 30 moon clips on hand and 60 is even better. When you hit the range with 180-300 rounds pre-loaded in clips you can shoot until the cylinder is too hot to touch without gloves. BTW, I find that particular problem starts to become noticeable at about the 180 round mark, thus my recomendation for a minimum of 30 clips.
BTW, like you when I shoot without using the clips with my 625-8 all I have to is point the barrel up and give the gun a firm shake. I'm not sure how my cylinder was machined but I suspect that it may have been ECM machined because it was totally free or any trace of a tool mark out of the box.
David Sinko
Member
It seems the "We'll build the best 625 possible, bar none" mentality stopped with the -4. Shortly thereafter they adopted the "Hey, we'll shortcut this thing as much as possible and the gunwriters will continue to promote it as being the same and most customers are too dumb to know the difference" mentality. This is also the same time that they switched to the frame mounted firing pin on all their revolvers. My 627 with the frame mounted firing pin functions perfectly so I will not condemn that concept in and of itself, but once you stop boring the cylinder properly you run into all sorts of trouble. Add CA compliance to the equation and you end up with a less than satisfactory product, at least as far as the 625 is concerned.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
Dale53
Member
Dave;
I'm not sure I agree with you as to "why" they quit headspacing on the case mouth.
For some reason, someone in authority at S&W, thought that they would be better served by use of a conventional ball seat. My 625-6 Model of 1989 and my Model 625-8 (JM Special) are two of the most accurate revolvers I have used (and that is a bushel basket of revolvers). They are MUCH more accurate than some of the 1917's I have used in the past.
I have no opinion as to whether or not it's BECAUSE of or in SPITE of the new ball seat, but I have no problems with using moon clips with .45 ACP's. If I wish to bypass the use of the clips, I just simply grab a bag of .45 Auto Rims as I head for the range.
Personally, I consider it a non-issue. I certainly do NOT consider the late model 625's to be less than satisfactory IN ANY WAY (emphasis intended).
FWIW
Dale53
I'm not sure I agree with you as to "why" they quit headspacing on the case mouth.
For some reason, someone in authority at S&W, thought that they would be better served by use of a conventional ball seat. My 625-6 Model of 1989 and my Model 625-8 (JM Special) are two of the most accurate revolvers I have used (and that is a bushel basket of revolvers). They are MUCH more accurate than some of the 1917's I have used in the past.
I have no opinion as to whether or not it's BECAUSE of or in SPITE of the new ball seat, but I have no problems with using moon clips with .45 ACP's. If I wish to bypass the use of the clips, I just simply grab a bag of .45 Auto Rims as I head for the range.
Personally, I consider it a non-issue. I certainly do NOT consider the late model 625's to be less than satisfactory IN ANY WAY (emphasis intended).
FWIW
Dale53
Jerry N.
Member
I have a 625PC and while I'm no expert, looking at the cylinder, there is a ring that looks like it would catch the rim of the case. I will try tomorrow at the range. I would think that if it doesn't fire it's because the firing pin is not the longer one that's available.
Associated with this issue of not firing without moonclips in a dash 8,
I am experiencing recoil pulling with all factory loads. If I shoot 3 of the
6 rnds in the moonclip the other 3 cartridges start getting longer.
My groups start to widen on the last 3 shots.
Is this recoil pulling normal? It has never pulled far enough to jam
up the cylinder.
I am experiencing recoil pulling with all factory loads. If I shoot 3 of the
6 rnds in the moonclip the other 3 cartridges start getting longer.
My groups start to widen on the last 3 shots.
Is this recoil pulling normal? It has never pulled far enough to jam
up the cylinder.
I bought a 625-2 in 2009. I had two full-moon clips that I used. These ended up getting lost. Since then I have fired the revolver without clips. Results have been fully excellent... perfect ignition, excellent on target accuracy. Empty casing have been easily ejected from the cylinder by a simple flip of the fingernail. Even steel cased Tula ammo has been easy to remove. I've not ever had to resort to a pencil or any other such tool. YMMV. Sincerely. brucev.
Dale53
Member
I can only speculate since I shoot nothing but reloads in my guns. I do NOT have that problem, even with 250 gr Keith bullets at 900+ fps (chronographed). The heavy bullet loads have a proper crimp groove and I use a medium roll crimp on those.
My standard target loads are 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent with a 200 gr Mihec clone of the H&G #68 SWC. I wouldn't expect those to be a problem. I taper crimp to .470" at the outside diameter of the mouth of the case. Further, my dies give me adequate case neck tension (both case neck tension AND proper crimping play a part in proper operation).
It seems to me that you have an ammo problem. I cannot think of anything regarding the revolver that could/would cause this to happen. I think a change of ammo is in order.
Dale53
There isn't any other major brand from the US to try.
I did try reloaded lead from someone that is, in his group, considered
an expert gunsmith and re-loader. His ammo pulled also.
It has been frustrating, I can use 1/3 moonclips one at a time and not get pulling.
Has anyone actually checked, ie shoot 4 or 5 rds and looked at the and measured the remaining 1 or 2 rnds?
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maxx
Member
I have heard the frame mounted firing pin models (625-6 and on) can have issues if not using moon clips. I remember seeing an extended firing pin on Brownells that is supposed to address that.
Never heard of hammer mounted firing pin models (625-2,3,4) having that issue.
Never heard of hammer mounted firing pin models (625-2,3,4) having that issue.
(For nn) I have never actually checked OAL of a loaded round that has been in any of my 625s for 4 or 5 shots and then been extracted, but I have never had any sign of a problem, and I have never heard of anyone complain about that. Usually this is something you see with a revolver that kicks much harder and faster.
How much movement of the bullet are you getting? Are you just talking about a few thousandths, or is this something you can detect visually (without measuring tools)?
How much movement of the bullet are you getting? Are you just talking about a few thousandths, or is this something you can detect visually (without measuring tools)?
I can see it, esp when putting new rnds in the clip next to that rnd. The lead rnd, after 10 rnds was adout a 1/32" though that is a guess, though there was a new gap between the SWC bullet and the brass.
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Dale53
Member
Back to the original question. Measure the headspace both with and without the full moon clips. If there is materially more headspace (distance between case head and recoil plate) when not using the clips then the rounds should not be fired without clips even if they go off. This is not good for the revolver.
If there is no material difference in headspace and your rounds won't reliably fire, then the replacement of the firing pin CAN help this. I use the Apex Tactical "duty" extra length firing pin. I have also tried Cylinder & Slide firing pins but had a failure with their pin (Note: Cylinder and Slide do NOT recommend dry firing with their firing pins whereas Apex does not caution against dry firing).
Keep in mind that the "extra length" firing pins are not actually longer but the slot in the side lets them EXTEND further. Amounts to the same thing, I guess...
At any rate, the extra length pins are relatively easy to change (if you know how to safely remove the revolver side plate).
FWIW
Dale53
If there is no material difference in headspace and your rounds won't reliably fire, then the replacement of the firing pin CAN help this. I use the Apex Tactical "duty" extra length firing pin. I have also tried Cylinder & Slide firing pins but had a failure with their pin (Note: Cylinder and Slide do NOT recommend dry firing with their firing pins whereas Apex does not caution against dry firing).
Keep in mind that the "extra length" firing pins are not actually longer but the slot in the side lets them EXTEND further. Amounts to the same thing, I guess...
At any rate, the extra length pins are relatively easy to change (if you know how to safely remove the revolver side plate).
FWIW
Dale53
My 2 ea -3's will not fire 100% without moon clips. BTW I use full moons and lot of AR too.
I have .018 difference-.025" difference in the head space,
and it won't shoot without the clips.
To tell what is going on you really need to measure headspace using a gage. You "might" come close IF you are absolutely sure your test cartridges are the same diameter and length as a .45 ACP headspace gage, but that could be problematic.
I don't know if revolver cartridge headspace gages are like rifle cartridges (go, no-go, and field) but I would think you would at least need to be able to gage the go and no-go dimensions (or minimum- and maximum-chamber). It seems Handejector just said recently (elsewhere) that he could not find established SAAMI dimenions for .45 ACP in a revolver - didn't he?
In any case, you would need to know what those dimensions should be, and then... you would need to know whether your ammunition conforms to SAAMI standards. It is not as simple as just dropping a cartridge in your gun, closing it, and testing it with feeler gages.
I understand most of what you say; but, it is getting too technical if I
have to check factory ammo for dimension correctness and if they meet
SAAMI standards when they come from Rem, Winchester, federal, or Hornady; this does not mean one should not check the ammo they buy
for obvious defects.
Besides I did not just drop it in and close it, I put one in a moonclip
and others in sans clip to either side.
But, I am now convinced the non firing without a clip is just the way
the -6 and newer guns work.
The issue now is why do bullets pull, it is not that high a recoil rnd
and it is not limited to a few brands, it is everything.
It probably is happening to everyone with a 625 and they haven't
noticed because they shoot the gun empty.
Making a reference like
doesn't help much because I would not know where without a link.
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No offence intended to the O/P or anyone else here, but I don't see why you'd not want to use moonclips in a 625, as they were intended for use with them, even if some earlier models will fire OK w/o. If they're too much hassle (even the RIMZ polymer ones, which are convenient for practice), load up some Auto Rim brass. Best of both worlds.
Stuart
Stuart
I've got a 1917, as old as you can get for a Smith revolver chambered for .45 ACP. I've shot it many times without the clips. Just gotta pick the empties out with your fingernails or use something to push em out with. I especially liked shooting it with .45 Auto Rims, but full moon clips are the way to go. Just ask Jerry!
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