Suggestions requested, please!

While I'm fairly certain that some of you guys are just having some fun, on the off chance that anyone is being serious, I think that the woman could more easily legally justify shooting the trespasser in self-defense than she could justify booby-trapping her land, (even if said booby-traps are non-lethal) and furthermore, said traps would more likely end up hurting someone other than the trespasser.
 
Let me elaborate a little. First and foremost, the first major encounter WAS recorded and used as evidence when police were summoned. The trespasser was actually bold enough to drive the ATV up the main entrance (be wasn't riding trails), and was charging the two special needs children (aged 5 & 6) in the lawn area of the property. Visualize a driveway bordered on each side by fenced 10 acre fields. Prior to the encounter, the intruder was unknown to the property owners.

Charges were filed, but between bail reform and the desire to reduce the spread of the virus, he hasn't been detained. When the lady, her daughter, and a family friend attempted to protect the children, he challenged the women to engage him (closest "weapons" were shovels and pitchforks). The police recommendation to get a gun was prompted by the officer's perception of the degree of threat the trespasser posed and the chance that a police response would be more documentation as opposed to prevention.

The property is rather rural, about ten miles as the crow flies from the police station. The sheriff's office doesn't have patrol and enforcement authority, it's purpose is court security and operation of the county jail. The property is posted. While the stable covers about seventy acres, shooting isn't advisable with the horse presence.
 
Last edited:
How is the trespasser accessing the property? The Sheriff needs to pay a friendly visit with the trespasser, advising that he's not allowed on the owner's property. If the guy is a felon, and reasonably intelligent, he'll think twice about getting wrapped around the axle, especially if he's on parole.

The land owner has a right to protect herself, her loved ones, and her property, but with no practical firearms experience, arming her doesn't strike me as her best option. It may even place her at greater risk in this case.
 
Does she have any experience with guns? Revolvers are pretty simple, but every female I've taken shooting has preferred semi autos over revolvers.

If they have a horses, do they have room for shooting? Any chance she could try some of your guns?
 
In this day and age this is a dangerous situation, she could loose everything if this *** freak is injured in any way. Sad to say this, criminals have more rights than honest citizens do. Not saying she should not arm herself but the idiot judges these days a danger to us. The Parole Board of Washington State just came 1 vote away from releasing a convicted serial killer with at least 40 victims, maybe up to 70, because he could get the kung flu in prison while serving his 400+ year sentence!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope everything works out for her.
 
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the all-too-common assertion that an untrained individual might as well not carry a firearm at all.

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but it is what it is, and such sentiments strike me as arrogant, condescending, and highly presumptuous. Honestly, learning how to safety operate a firearm, load it, and aim it do not require a trip to the range, so arguably the most important aspects of introductory firearms training can be taught without the necessity of a live fire exercise.

Not to devalue the worth of training at the range, but it is just that, learning to shoot at stationery or otherwise predictably moving targets in an otherwise relaxed environment on your own terms simply cannot adequately prepare anyone for a real self-defense shooting. Regardless of how much shooting she does at the range, it will not aid her much if she has to shoot at a man on an ATV speeding straight at her with intent to run her down.

Lastly, nobody wants to get shot, especially not cowardly men who need to terrorize elderly women and special needs children from the safety of a vehicle in order to feel strong, so merely drawing a firearm, much less having it fired at him will likely be enough to send this wannabe toughguy back home to change his soiled manties in a hurry.
 
Last edited:
The property is rather rural, about ten miles as the crow flies from the police station. The sheriff's office doesn't have patrol and enforcement authority, it's purpose is court security and operation of the county jail. The property is posted. While the stable covers about seventy acres, shooting isn't advisable with the horse presence.

I noted earlier that horses aren't fond of loud noises by their ears. However, we breed horses and if a safe backstop is available, they'll get used to the noise-if reasonably distant-and ignore it. Possibly move away from it, but not have any great concern. We used to have two nags who'd stand about 20 feet behind me while I practiced long range rifle.
 
Lastly, nobody wants to get shot, especially not cowardly men who need to terrorize elderly women and special needs children from the safety of a vehicle in order to feel strong, so merely drawing a firearm, much less having it fired at him will likely be enough to send this wannabe toughguy packing in a hurry.

In case you missed it, the "wannbe tough guy" allegedly has a manslaughter conviction in his past. That suggests he may well be more than a "wannabe".

It's entirely possible that the presence of a firearm in the hands of someone obviously prepared to use it might take care of the problem. OTOH, it might not.
 
I appreciate the advice that is coming my way.

While the property is rural, it is built up on 3 sides with about 20 homes. While I had been given permission to deer hunt there a few years back, even though I would be using a shotgun, I would have extreme reservations hunting on the property with the horses kept in their stalls.

I just did a quick search on an auction site, I have learned that most of the listed, used Model 10s and 64s are listing for more than an M&P Shield! I do like the appeal of a shotgun, but the thug is riding "2 up" with his stepson, who may be a "tween", but would most likely be in the line of fire.

If there were a safe place to shoot, I would not be against allowing them to try some of my more appropriate handguns (a 36-6, a 686+, and a G17). The problem is, most of my hardware is designed for target shooting, with longer barrels and 3Ts. The big problem seems to be that this thug has no respect for anyone, anyone else's property, or authority. Definitely a bad combination that doesn't suggest a reasonable resolution.
 
...
If you were in my shoes, what would you recommend?

Butting out.

How is this your deal? A business vendor you use is being harassed by a homicidal sociopath. She's already reported this to the police. They've suggested she should get a gun. Maybe they should suggest which gun.

How is there anything but downside for you by injecting yourself in this and recommending she carry a particular weapon?
 
Last edited:
Hire a bodyguard. She is no match for someone with an extensive record. Learn to shoot at the same time but she needs real help.
 
In case you missed it, the "wannbe tough guy" allegedly has a manslaughter conviction in his past. That suggests he may well be more than a "wannabe".

Not really, he could have killed anybody, including another elderly woman in a hit-and-run on his ATV.

Threatening an elderly woman and some special needs kids is the hallmark of a coward, ergo I highly doubt that he murdered anyone who could have actually stood up to him. At best he might have murdered someone by stabbing them in the back.

Might he still continue his advance in the event that she draws a firearm on him? We can only hope that he's that stupid and that the woman might do the world the favor of wiping that cowardly scum off the face of the earth by putting a bullet in him so that he can die with his face in dirt as he deserves.
 
I appreciate the advice that is coming my way.

While the property is rural, it is built up on 3 sides with about 20 homes. While I had been given permission to deer hunt there a few years back, even though I would be using a shotgun, I would have extreme reservations hunting on the property with the horses kept in their stalls.

I just did a quick search on an auction site, I have learned that most of the listed, used Model 10s and 64s are listing for more than an M&P Shield! I do like the appeal of a shotgun, but the thug is riding "2 up" with his stepson, who may be a "tween", but would most likely be in the line of fire.

If there were a safe place to shoot, I would not be against allowing them to try some of my more appropriate handguns (a 36-6, a 686+, and a G17). The problem is, most of my hardware is designed for target shooting, with longer barrels and 3Ts. The big problem seems to be that this thug has no respect for anyone, anyone else's property, or authority. Definitely a bad combination that doesn't suggest a reasonable resolution.

Sounds to me like arming up with the expectation of a confrontation is premature, especially with a general lack of experience and the likelihood of others being within the threat area. I have no problems with individuals preparing and acting in defense of themselves, their families, their homes, and their properties, but the situation described is setting off alarm bells in my head.

An apparently notorious bad actor, usually accompanied by an underage juvenile, repeatedly trespassing and engaging in aggressive behavior against the lawful property owners. The circumstances almost shout "CAUTION" in my ears, not just physical caution but great care not to create civil or criminal complaints that could be devastating in scope. Believe it or not, but there are more than a few lawyers out there who would jump on the bandwagon for lawsuits against a property owner who engaged in (lawyers' words) negligent, malicious, or violent means against their poor client who was just out enjoying the day on his ATV and may have inadvertently crossed a property line with no intent to trespass, etc, etc, etc, fill in the blanks (just like lawyers do in court pleadings).

Step 1: Document, document, document. Every telephone call to law enforcement, every complaint made, logged by date, time, officers' names, full details. Trail cameras or video recordings if at all possible, copies to authorities. Perhaps a letter from the property owner's attorney demanding compliance with trespass laws, a copy of the recorded legal boundaries of the property by public records, couple of pages of lawyer mumbo jumbo thrown in for effect.

Step 2: Establish a pattern if possible. Mornings, evenings, weekends, weekdays, whatever; there is usually a pattern to peoples' behaviors.

Step 3: Request law enforcement action based on the information documented. Patrols, surveillance, static assignment on days and times when these incidents are most likely to occur. Cops are more likely to commit resources when the commitment is likely to result in successful intervention.

Step 4: Assuming no LE responsiveness, consider retaining a licensed private security company to intervene on specific days and times when violations are most likely. Such companies are licensed, bonded, and insured so the risks to the property owner are much less than direct personal intervention (armed or otherwise). Consult an attorney regarding a certificate naming the property owner as an additional insured on the security company's liability policy for the duration of the contract.

Signs (NO TRESPASSING, KEEP OUT RIFLE RANGE IN USE, whatever) are fine, but not an absolute protection against civil claims. Covered pits (full of pig poop or whatever) or tire flattening devices might be effective but might also lead to escalating confrontation.

Everything I am hearing from the OP says this is a seriously bad actor who has decided (for whatever reasons) that he is going to impose his will on the property owner and continue a campaign of terror. That guy needs to learn that the only possible conclusion involves handcuffs and criminal charges.

Assuming that is the end result, THEN the property owner will need to have effective means of self-defense in the event that Mr. Bozo decides to retaliate. Much easier to explain to a jury why reasonably necessary force was required when Mr. Bozo comes back to continue the contest after being introduced to the proper mechanisms of legal proceedings.
 
And... she's an inexperienced shooter that's supposed to shoot the sociopath off a erratically moving ATV going what, 25 MPH, while not causing any collateral damage to the juvenile on the ATV or any human and equine bystanders. How is that supposed to work?
 
The Parole Board of Washington State just came 1 vote away from releasing a convicted serial killer with at least 40 victims, maybe up to 70, because he could get the kung flu in prison while serving his 400+ year sentence!!!!!!

Why, no. No they didn't. That's not what happened.

The original post of "a committee voted 5/4 against releasing him from prison so he wouldn't be at risk to catch the Corona virus" makes it sound like a parole board or the like looked at his specific case to see if he should walk free.

The "committee" was the state's Supreme Court. The lawsuit was a request for a Writ of Mandumus pertaining to taking "adequate measures" to prevent the spread of COVID-19, which could include releasing some prisoners who met certain criteria but was never about a no-questions-asked mass release.


PDF of court's denial: https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-4-23-2020.pdf
 
Man, today just seems to be my day for having to disagree with people, but here we go again...

Call me crazy, but I would be more concerned by the prospect of getting murdered than getting sued, ergo I would buy a gun first, carry it with me, and use it if necessary, rather than risk getting murdered because I was more concerned with preemptively building a rock-solid case for a lawsuit that won't even matter if I'm six feet under.

Seriously, sometimes I have to wonder who folks fear most, prosecutors/attorneys, or their own would-be murderer? I would sooner go to prison for lawfully defending myself and my family from harm than essentially allow myself to be killed because I hesitated out of fear of crooked men in suits. Priorities, people!
 
As a Longtime Firearms Instructor, I've found there are People that want a firearm , but unwilling to use it. To these Folks, I recommend either a can of Wasp/Hornet Spray or a Kimber Pepper Blaster.

If you were my instructor I'd ask for a refund. There are MULTIPLE videos all over You Tube debunking the Wasp Spray myth. In a couple of them the person is sprayed right in the face with zero incapacitation.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top