Tactical Pistol class with 3rd Gens

cnette01

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My teenage son and I took a beginning tactical pistol class yesterday. I gave him his choice of which pistol he wanted to use in the class and he picked my 5906. I decided on taking my 4566TSW mostly because I wanted to see how well I would do with a 3rd gen pistol and because I wanted to improve my shooting skills with it. We do have some modern striker fired pistols that we could have used, but wanted to try the 3rd gens in the class.

The class was great. The instruction started with basic grip, stance, draw stroke and a full explanation of the importance of each. The instructor also informed us that there would be 2 competitions during the class where we would have a chance to win a "challenge coin". There were several live fire drills including accuracy/trigger reset, stepping left/right before firing, shooting from the hip, malfunction drills, and others.

There were 12 students in the class. I did notice that my son and I were the only ones that brought 3rd gen S&W pistols. Everyone else had Glocks except for 2 of the other students. One of those had a full size M&P and the other had a M&P Shield. The instructor took note of this, borrowed the 5906 from my son and proceeded to explain some of the differences to the class. He stated that while the 3rd gens were older weapons, they were great guns. He further explained that my son and I would have have to engage/disengage the safety/decocker during the draw stroke.

During the live fire drills, I did notice that we usually finished last or near the end. My hands are on the small size for a guy and my son's hands aren't much larger. We both had difficulty disengaging the safety/decocker and pressing the magazine release since our thumbs weren't quite long enough.

The first challenge was firing 4 center mass shots into the target starting with only 1 round in the magazine and 1 round in the chamber. You had to then reload with another magazine and finish the remaining 2 shots. Accuracy counted too, a miss and you were out. This was a timed event, starting at 8 seconds, then 7 seconds, then 6 seconds, then 5 seconds. I was out at 6 seconds and the first to drop out. After 5 seconds, it was untimed and whoever was fastest and still hit the target won the challenge. The winner was using a Glock.

The second challenge was based only on accuracy. Each student had a 1 inch diameter black adhesive circle placed on their target. The objective was to hit the black dot as many times as you could with 5 rounds. There was no time limit. I don't know the exact distance, but it was fairly close at about 4 or 5 yards. I fired all 5 shots within a minute and hit the black dot 3 times out of 5. I remember thinking which one of the guys with a striker fired pistol won the challenge this time. I looked down the row of targets and realized that no one else had more than 1 hit on the black dot. I was impressed that a 3rd gen S&W 4566TSW did that well. I have to say it was pretty neat to win that challenge coin with my 4566TSW!

I learned a lot during that class. It was a great experience, and my son and I intend to take more classes together in the future. He had a great time and so did I.
 
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Your instructor should have asked if you carry with the safety engaged or not before arbitrarily deciding how you should use your own gun. I think that the 5906 holds up very well against the polymer guns with its short reset and extra weight to help with recoil control. When I carry my 5906 I never use the safety except as a decocker as I find it's manipulation counterintuitive for me a I started auto pistol shooting with a 1911.
 
I wholeheartedly agree...it is one thing for the instructor to explain the differences, but to insist that you run your gun in this manner only is simply wrong.
Much like insisting a 1911 owner must have the hammer down on an empty chamber.....

Randy
 
When on duty, once we changed from .357 revolvers to the 645, and later the 4506, I never carried with the safety on. These DA/SA semi-autos are as safe as revolvers. So are the PPK & PPK/S. So are the BERSA Thunders. Some of the deputies insisted on using the safety. I told them they were risking their lives by doing so, seconds count. It was a sad day to me when gun makers changed to DAO pistols. I only have one, a Ruger Custom LCP, only because I needed something relatively inexpensive, and small, to carry around the farm. I couldn't find a used PPK. When we were trained on DA/SA pistols it was drilled in to us to use that decocker like it was second nature. It is now automatic with me. If I can learn it, why can't other gun owners? I have a number of Gen 3 revolvers & pistols. I would not sell them for anything.
 
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A 3rd gen with safety off and hammer down is as safe or safer to carry than a revolver or "safe action" or DAO type pistol.

That's the benefit of a double action pistol, the longer heavy pull on the first shot makes it safe to carry without a safety and follow up shots are light single action.
 
When I bought my 4563 for duty use, I sent it back to Smith and had them change it over to decocker only. It flips back up on it's own, so you can't put the safety on at all. I have carried it like that for many years, with no AD's. Like KSdeputy said, too slow to use if you have to take the safety off.
 
I'll just add to the post count........rack slide...hammer down ...... safety off....since 1989.....................


FWIW...

My PC 5906 "safety"lever is de-cocker only..automatically flips up!

Every Sig 22x series pistol only has a de-cocker......

Beretta 92/96 Elite IIs are also de-cocker only..... others can be converted.... several runs were done for Police Departments with de-cocker only "safeties".

FWIW..........as to the "older weapons...." comment........... 3rd Gen. Smiths were introduced in 1988...... IIRC Glock 17s first date to 1982/83..... and those 1st gen Glocks didn't show up on X-rays :D
 
Bruce Willis said so!! Must be true.....Thanks for the memory
of John McClain........

Randy
PS. A 3rd Gen Smith is never at a disadvantage!!!
 
Over the last 6 years since I've gotten back into shooting, I've been through a number of advanced defensive and tactical 2-day classes at our local training organization run by Marty Hayes, as well as a lot of 1-day tuneup sessions. For all but a couple, I've used a third gen, starting with the 5906, and including the 4566, 4026, CS40, and even the old 39. The others were taken using a Combat Masterpiece from 1955. I've always felt proud that I could more than hold my own against the plastic guns and the 1911 clones which seem to have constant not-running issues.

I set the expectation early on that I would be holstering with the safety off, and the two motion decock/safety off is second nature now. The people running the classes are smart enough to understand. The bigger argument was over the empty mag in the gun during dry fire exercises to override the mag safety.

At the end of one "advanced" class, we were tested with the following:

1. Accuracy: From holster, shooter fires 6 shots in 30 seconds at 15 yards, all A-zones.
2. Multiple targets/Reloading: At 7 yards, draw and fire one shot on each of 3 targets, reload and one shot on each of three targets, reload again and cover target. 11 seconds total time, 17 sec. for revolver. Run twice. Total of 12 shots, 6 must be A-zones, the rest can be C-Zones, no D-zones or misses.
3. Moving Target: At 7 yards, target will appear and be visible for 2.25 sec. traveling approximately 4 yards. Shooter must draw and fire 2 shots, starting when target appears. 3 runs, all A-zones.
4. One Handed Shooting Skills: Shooter at 4 yards, on whistle, draws and fires 6 shots in 6 seconds, all A-zone hits.
Repeated from low ready with weak hand.
5) Low Light: Shooter at 5 yards, on whistle draws and fires one shot on each of 3 targets, 3.5 sec. or less. Repeat for a total of 6 times. 18 shots total, at least 9 must be A-zones, the rest C-zones. No D zones or misses.

Only the shooter with the "vintage" 5906 passed.
 
Your instructor should have asked if you carry with the safety engaged or not before arbitrarily deciding how you should use your own gun. I think that the 5906 holds up very well against the polymer guns with its short reset and extra weight to help with recoil control. When I carry my 5906 I never use the safety except as a decocker as I find it's manipulation counterintuitive for me a I started auto pistol shooting with a 1911.

We were performing a lot of 2 to 4 shot drills, so I'm sure the instructor didn't want us to reholster in SA mode. Thinking about what he said some more, he may have meant that we just needed to decock the weapon before holstering after a drill. I should have asked for clarification, so that's on me.
 
I always carried my third gen guns with the safety off. I used that lever as a decocker. Same with the Walthers. No problem keeping up with Tupperware then.
I was taught in the 80's and have taught and carried to this very day, the lever is up At All Times! Pushed down to decock then pushed back up every time. Movement from point a to b is then made with a decock gun, or decock gun is holstered. A Chicago officer was killed in the 80's as he was engaging bad guys with the decock lever down. Poor soul bent the trigger trying to fire.
Thus this train of thought is lever up at all times.
 
Guess I'm the odd duck. I carry every weapon that has a safety with the safety "on". And it shouldn't add a millisecond to your time, either. Disengage the safety as you grasp the butt on the draw.

Glad you had a good time with your boy. Little practice every night drawing and disengaging and it will be as intuitive as stepping on the brake before shifting into gear.
 
Congrats on winning the coin. ;)

FWIW (won't even buy a cup of regular coffee :) ) ...

When another guy and I from our small bureau were sent to a plainclothes/street tactics class for a week, he carried his issued 5903 (I was instructed to take a then-new SW9940). We were the only ones carrying S&W pistols in the class.

For one of the range sessions, the instructor for that day was wearing a 1911 (work gun). He listened to some of the joking being done at the expense of my partner and I about carrying S&W's, and finally decided to comment. He basically said that while the S&W (TDA's) were disappearing from police work, that he'd seen a lot of them come through ranges and training sessions over the years, and he'd always considered them to be good, reliable guns and thought well of them. Sheepish faces and crickets. Probably didn't hurt (or escape notice) that neither my partner's 5903 or my SW9940 exhibited any stoppages or other malfunctions throughout that day (or the rest of the week).

It was only a coincidence that during that same day's range session that a couple guys from one agency both experienced some feeding stoppages and malfunctions with their issued practical/tactical Glocks, using issued factory ammo. I think they were G35's, but it wasn't my problem so I didn't pay much attention to them.

Then again, in another class (instructor recert) I had a guy shooting next to me for a couple of drill sessions, using his HK USP45. He was getting some practice in doing clearance drills while I was doing shooting (4013TSW). Turns out he was HK USP pistol armorer, and during the lunch break he stripped his gun and corrected whatever had been causing him grief (I didn't ask for details).

Yep, plastic guns can have their own problems, even though a number of them are simpler guns to maintain and repair than metal-framed pistols. ;)

No surprise the 3rd gen S&W's can be used for pretty good accuracy. I routinely use mine to shoot small wooden clothespins positioned around the edges of the cardboard target backboards on the range, and can usually get good hits from 5-7yds, and on good days sometimes out to 10yds.

The best I ever did using clothes pins for targets was when hooting my 3913 on a night range (shadows caused by spaced overhead lighting), in a friendly competition against another instructor who was using his Wilson CQB (SWAT). He missed his shot at 13yds, and I didn't. I "won". It was actually a difficult shot, and I was surprised I made it (and the hits at 10, 11 & 12yds, for that matter), as I was using the earlier Novak Ghost rear sight back then, which was basically a wide & deep, black finished semicircular notch without any markings (no dots, painted lines or tritium capsule). You had to elevate the front sight post (night sight) high enough for the top of the post to be even with the top of the "sides" of the wide dish-shaped rear sight. It meant you could see pretty much all of the front post, with the top of it floating between the wide sides of the rear dish. Not as easy as I'd have wished, especially shooting in variable shadowed spots as we continued to move back a pace from the target for each successful pair of shots. (Started and 3yds, taking turns moving backwards and only stopping the contest when one of us missed any shot.)

I've since replaced that old style Novak Ghost with factory night sights, so I could more easily wring some precision from the sights, instead of just running something for "fast & close". ;)

I converted that 3913 (and CS45) to the spring-loaded, decock-only option just about as soon as I'd ordered them. Handy. I sort of wish I had a spare 9/.40 decock-only assembly for my 3913TSW (as its slide is machined to accept one), but not enough to go looking for one.

Don't get me wrong, as I own and like 4 different types of plastic-framed pistols (SW99's, Glocks, M&P's and Ruger LCP's), and I've been trained as an armorer on 3 of those brands. They serve their roles well.

I still like my collection of S&W 3rd gen's, though. As a matter of fact, I've decided to take my 4013TSW as one of my LEOSA weapons for a pending road trip (also one of my LCP's, for discreet pocket holster carry). I usually take a J-frame or one of my Glock subcompacts for a 'larger' weapon.

Congrats again. :)
 
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Coincidentally yesterday I was at a rifle course which included handguns for transitioning from rifle to handgun. There were 8 students. 4 were cops, me, 2 guys who were friends of one cop and never held a firearm before and one other guy.

I'm not going to count the new guys, I had a GLOCK 17, one cop had a Sig P series and I don't know what the other cops had. The only other civilian had a CZ. When transitioning from rifle to handgun I was the only one to keep all my shots in the X and 10 ring. Even the guy with the Sig had his shots all over the black. Still good hits but double the size of mine.

I know it's impossible for a polymer gun to have anything but a frag pattern but there it was.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Guess I'm the odd duck. I carry every weapon that has a safety with the safety "on". And it shouldn't add a millisecond to your time, either. Disengage the safety as you grasp the butt on the draw.

Glad you had a good time with your boy. Little practice every night drawing and disengaging and it will be as intuitive as stepping on the brake before shifting into gear.
Whatever time it may be is still time

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
I've taken my 5903 through two classes - a 4 hour intro-level tactical class and a 8 hour advanced class. In both classes I was the only one running a 3rd gen, but surprisingly not the only one using a DA/SA. In the first class, we had two guys with Walthers (a PPQ and P99), two with SIG P226s, my friend with a M&P Pro, myself, and another friend with a FN FNS9. During the second class, my two friends carried the same guns, and we had one of the guys from the first class with a SIG. I was able to hold my own with the a gun nearly as old as I am (me being born in 1989, and the 5903 dating from 1992), with only my ultra competitive friend with the M&P edging me out during the timed shoots. The short reset of the 5903 made rapid fire easy, though I was wishing for the steel frame of a 5906 during the timed fire. The aluminum frame sure was nice with the gun hanging off of my hip for 8 hours, though!

The gun ran like a top with no hiccups at all. The only issues I had were:
-the Novak sights made racking the slide off my belt during one-handed drills hard. I wound up cocking by hooking the ejection port on my holster
-the magazine release button is slightly hard to reach for my average sized hands
-the curved bottom of the frame and matching floor plates made stripping the magazines slower than they could be when they didn't drop free (which they did almost every time). The chamfer on the bottom front of the frame of later TSW guns would have helped a lot here

I actually liked the slide safety/decocker when shooting quickly. I racked the slide during reloads using the decocker as an indexing point, hooking my fingers over the lever and pulling up and back. It gave me something solid to grab onto and I didn't accidentally engage the safety while doing so.

I recently bought a CZ75 SP01 to use as my primary handgun, replacing the 5903. I'll run it through the same 8 hour class sometime this year to see how it compares to the 5903. The extra weight of the steel frame and accessory rail for a light make it a better nightstand gun, but the S&W has a shorter reset even though the CZ has had trigger work done. It's a pity the 3rd gens are out of production, otherwise I would have bought a 5906TSW for the job (especially a later gun with the melonite finish and integral frame rail).
 
I remember seeing a picture of this, or another officer, during a Street Survival course I took in the late 1980s. The story was that he had the safety on and forgot to flip the lever up.

I didn't have a semi auto back then, but the memory stuck with me and I never carry with the safety on for that reason.

As I said to a non shooter the other day, the real safety is between the ears of the shooter.

. A Chicago officer was killed in the 80's as he was engaging bad guys with the decock lever down. Poor soul bent the trigger trying to fire.
Thus this train of thought is lever up at all times.
 
I remember seeing a picture of this, or another officer, during a Street Survival course I took in the late 1980s. The story was that he had the safety on and forgot to flip the lever up.

I didn't have a semi auto back then, but the memory stuck with me and I never carry with the safety on for that reason.

As I said to a non shooter the other day, the real safety is between the ears of the shooter.

It was interesting in the days of the metal-framed guns being the dominant presence to learn how different agencies had different policies regarding how they wanted decocker/safety equipped guns carried.

Some mandated carrying them safety off/ready-to-fire, and some with the safeties on-safe. While some guys who carried safety-on could swipe the levers off with some alacrity, with enough practice, it wasn't unusual to see the 'average' cop shooter lose up to 1-2 seconds during the presentation having to deal with the safety.
 
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