Talk me out of the M&P 10

I would love to talk you out of buying an M&P 10... but I cannot. I bought one a couple of months ago. I topped it with a Nikon Buckmasters 3-9 x 40 & purchased a readily available, off the shelf ammo... that resulted in .904", 5 shot groups at 100 yards. All factory components.

I have now installed a Gisselle SSA-E trigger group and a Magpul ACS stock & expect those groups to improve.

Hopefully I will get decent results from my hunting ammo... 165 grain Nosler Trophy Grade ballistic tips.
 
Too late, my new M&P 10 is supposed to be delivered to Bass Pro Shop today!

Now I just have to read through these forums to find out what cleaning things I need for this gun to get it ready to shoot for the first time this weekend!

Mike
 
I have now installed a Gisselle SSA-E trigger group and a Magpul ACS stock & expect those groups to improve.

068 - Did you measure trigger pull before and after the Gisselle trigger install? I'm curious as I'm considering doing the same. Thanks.
 
Want an autoloader .308 long range marksman's rifle? Get an M1A Springfield, and shell out the cash for top notch match grade and trimmings. Want a .308 battle rifle? Get a regular M1A, get a PTR 91, or get a FN FAL. Those three are based on real world military guns with very real battle experience and refinement. The AR-10 is a failed prototype, and people only buy it because Americans are coo-coo for AR-15's, and are to afraid to leave the platform.
Yep this ^.
 
Want an autoloader .308 long range marksman's rifle? Get an M1A Springfield, and shell out the cash for top notch match grade and trimmings. Want a .308 battle rifle? Get a regular M1A, get a PTR 91, or get a FN FAL. Those three are based on real world military guns with very real battle experience and refinement. The AR-10 is a failed prototype, and people only buy it because Americans are coo-coo for AR-15's, and are to afraid to leave the platform.

Well, based on this platform, we (US) DO employ and deploy the Knights Armament SR 25. And, the British are using the LMT 308AR/ AR10. The original AR10 was and is still used by the Argentines, and a couple other small nations. It was used alongside the FAL in Rhodesia.

If you really know the AR10 history, the rifle was very good, and GTG for testing until the week before the official test, where they swapped the barrel for a carbon fiber wrapped ultra thin barrel for weight savings. And, it (The original) works pretty well. Except it can not take sustained heat because the epoxy winds up going soft, and the inner barrel will then swell and blow.
The originals' main drawback was the attempts to modify M14 magazines to fit the rifle. The M14 unit costs a whopping $9 back in the day, while the Armalite AR10 magazine ran about $35, and this was in the 1980's. To be fair, with the factory magazine, the rifle works well, and does not break down. The carbon barrel was a stupid stunt, and it cost them the M14 contract.
You can see how much the platform made an impression, because when it was reintroduced as the AR15/ M16....... the only thing left to say was "What M14???" The M14 is a good rifle. It throws a good round; a BETTER round than the 5.56, by far. But it has its' own issues, as does every combat rifle. And it's no weight savings. As to the FAL, they are really good rifles, but with their own quirks, so no one is to be outdone in the weird parts arena. I traded my SR25, at the right time, and it was WELL WORTH my while to do so. Lemme tell you; I would have run that rifle a hundred times over before I would hustle the M14 around for a month. And, if to compare to an FAL? There would be no compelling reason to go with the FAL. If there was no parts support?? Neither is prone to parts failure on a regular basis. So, day to day, there would be no benefit. As to accuracy??? The FAL would be a good bit behind the SR25. It's not better in any way to any of the 308 rifles I now have.

And; for the assumption that the M&P10 would be purchased to be a potential middleweight battle rifle for self defense/ EOTWAWKI rifle?? Look man....... whatever rifle and pistol you are carrying will be the last rifle and pistol you will ever carry. In this case? If I was in possession of the M&P10, and the world flipped on its' head? I'd load out everything into every mag, and then choose carefully what else I would store and where, and how. And I would walk out into the fray- a helluva lot better prepared than my neighbors. Tier 1, tier 2, shotgun, 22lr, 38snubnose revolver- ALL beat unarmed. Run what ya brung.
 
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068 - Did you measure trigger pull before and after the Gisselle trigger install? I'm curious as I'm considering doing the same. Thanks.

Me too! I have a Geissele Super Dynamic Enhanced, SD-E, trigger still in the packaging waiting to be installed in my M&P 10. Thanks.
 
Well, based on this platform, we (US) DO employ and deploy the Knights Armament SR 25. And, the British are using the LMT 308AR/ AR10. The original AR10 was and is still used by the Argentines, and a couple other small nations. It was used alongside the FAL in Rhodesia.

If you really know the AR10 history, the rifle was very good, and GTG for testing until the week before the official test, where they swapped the barrel for a carbon fiber wrapped ultra thin barrel for weight savings. And, it (The original) works pretty well. Except it can not take sustained heat because the epoxy winds up going soft, and the inner barrel will then swell and blow.
The originals' main drawback was the attempts to modify M14 magazines to fit the rifle. The M14 unit costs a whopping $9 back in the day, while the Armalite AR10 magazine ran about $35, and this was in the 1980's. To be fair, with the factory magazine, the rifle works well, and does not break down. The carbon barrel was a stupid stunt, and it cost them the M14 contract.
You can see how much the platform made an impression, because when it was reintroduced as the AR15/ M16....... the only thing left to say was "What M14???" The M14 is a good rifle. It throws a good round; a BETTER round than the 5.56, by far. But it has its' own issues, as does every combat rifle. And it's no weight savings. As to the FAL, they are really good rifles, but with their own quirks, so no one is to be outdone in the weird parts arena. I traded my SR25, at the right time, and it was WELL WORTH my while to do so. Lemme tell you; I would have run that rifle a hundred times over before I would hustle the M14 around for a month. And, if to compare to an FAL? There would be no compelling reason to go with the FAL. If there was no parts support?? Neither is prone to parts failure on a regular basis. So, day to day, there would be no benefit. As to accuracy??? The FAL would be a good bit behind the SR25. It's not better in any way to any of the 308 rifles I now have.

And; for the assumption that the M&P10 would be purchased to be a potential middleweight battle rifle for self defense/ EOTWAWKI rifle?? Look man....... whatever rifle and pistol you are carrying will be the last rifle and pistol you will ever carry. In this case? If I was in possession of the M&P10, and the world flipped on its' head? I'd load out everything into every mag, and then choose carefully what else I would store and where, and how. And I would walk out into the fray- a helluva lot better prepared than my neighbors. Tier 1, tier 2, shotgun, 22lr, 38snubnose revolver- ALL beat unarmed. Run what ya brung.

You gave some reasons why the AR-10 lost to the M-14 in the US, but fail to mention why the rest of the free world chose the FN FAL or the G3. Truth is, rifle to rifle, the AR 10 lost out to both platforms in fair competition in many countries. There's a little bit more to the story than a carbon barrel in the US run of tests.

As for the M-14 not being a big weight saver, well, not everyone begs to have a .308 rifle shaved down to nothing, considering that heavier guns mitigate recoil better, and are more stable at rest. I do know the specs on the AR's .308 marksmen rifles used militarily, and they are certainly no lightweights or middleweights.

Since you brought up parts briefly, let us address that. Since all G3's and HK91 cones are exactly identical, any and all surplus parts and add ons are extremely cheap and available, and there is no sweat of looking up parts lists to see what parts can go with which parts. The FN FAl is not quite as universal, but between the metric and inch variations, there are still many parts available, mostly interchangable, and the used market is rife with military surplus. On the other hand, AR 10's are not exactly universal by any standard. Many parts and builds have little compatibility with others, leaving the user searching for specific parts, at lower availability, and higher prices, and also at the risk of the loss of a small manufacturer could render a weapon with any future supplies of new parts. Wither they break down constantly or rock solid reliable, extra parts are valuable, and at some point with heavy use, necessary.

I respect your input, and agree that the AR-10's on the civilian market will out shoot a FN FAL in terms of accuracy out of the box, off the shelf, and very true that all weapons have quirks. But will I change my recommendation? Probably not.
 
068 - Did you measure trigger pull before and after the Gisselle trigger install? I'm curious as I'm considering doing the same. Thanks.

I do not have a trigger pull gauge to measure the difference but then I did not need one to immediately feel the difference.

The Gisselle is 1,000 times better than OE (keep in mind that I have only dry fired the new trigger around 100 times. No live rounds yet.).
 
If I understand correctly the M&P10 is not an AR10 right?

And I'm sure there are many more economical choices for throwing lead, and more accurate choices, and more politically correct choices, and more historically proven choices.

That doesn't mean anyone is wrong buying the M&P10.
I bought one because I got a great price and I like it. It makes me happy so it's a good buy in my mind. If I want a Garrand I'll buy one of those too!

I believe there are compromises with any rifle, you choose which aspects are important for your use.

My M&P10 is a cream puff to shoot, is very accurate, holds a lot of ammo and makes me happy. That's a Best Buy in my book ;)

.
 
Bass Pro Shop and CO suck!!!!!!!!!!!!! They took my magazine away because it's 20 rounds! $50 says the douche bag behind the counter just kept it for himself....

I hate democrats!
 
Did your gun come with the standard S&W 10 rounder also ? Mine did because in this state 10 round magazines are the only ones that are legal to sell. If you did not get any mag I would contact the seller or S&W to see about getting at least a 10 rounder. Now it is legal for us to drive out of State and buy high capacity mags, in person, and bring them back . Go figure.
 
Nope, it only came with the 20 round mag. A local gun store was able to sell me PARTS for a 20 round mag. It took me 5 seconds to make a 20 round Pmag.... Drop a spring inside the plastic case and put a cover on, boom done. Democrats are soooooooooooo stupid.

I'm heading up to Jensen Arms this Saturday since their WY store is closing for good this weekend. I'll pick up a few Pmags up there. My dad told me that before this stupid Dem. law went into place, Magpul did a helicopter drop with thousands of magazines for free to the public. He said he picked up 12 just from that.

I will forever buy Magpul products just because they're good people for doing something like that. I guess that the Democrats do have a point though. Magazines under 15 rounds cannot kill people. They actually are even unable to load ammunition into. 15 round magazines are only for show, they're basically dummy magazines. Also, you cannot remove a 15 round magazine and put a second one in, it's physically impossible to do. I believe that we should remove all cars from the road. Cars kill more people than bullets. Democrats, please put in effect a law that removes all cars from the road. GO OBAMA! You Republicans can eat it! Obama is smarter than all! AIDS, AIDS kills a lot of people. We should remove everyone with AIDS.

Mike
 
If I understand correctly the M&P10 is not an AR10 right?

And I'm sure there are many more economical choices for throwing lead, and more accurate choices, and more politically correct choices, and more historically proven choices.

That doesn't mean anyone is wrong buying the M&P10.
I bought one because I got a great price and I like it. It makes me happy so it's a good buy in my mind. If I want a Garrand I'll buy one of those too!

I believe there are compromises with any rifle, you choose which aspects are important for your use.

My M&P10 is a cream puff to shoot, is very accurate, holds a lot of ammo and makes me happy. That's a Best Buy in my book ;)

.

Your understanding is the same as mine. People do not own AR10's or AR15's unless they have an Armalite. I understand that Armalite has the patent for these and you cannot officially call another brand an AR10 or AR15. The M&P 10 is very similar to the AR10 as far as sizes and how it's chambered.

I like how the rifle looks and how you can customize it. It is a bit heavy but I'm not in Vietnam carrying it for 15 hours a day so that's not a huge deal to me. I'm excited to go shoot the thing, maybe this weekend. First, I have to figure out how to get the stupid takedown pin out for the first time! I need a dowel and a punch to get that bad boy out.


Mike
 
Thomsonmike82,
I agree with what you say, but caution your use of political language... Not arguing, just some take offense and then things get deleted and people get yelled at... You know what I mean ;)

And yes cars kill more people than guns. The difference is probably that most everyone owns a car and they see value and usefulness in it. Many fewer own guns and those who don't sometimes don't see the usefulness of having one..... And then they are fed the idea that guns kill people, and only criminals have a use for guns, and you can see why some may believe guns are bad.

Our job is to show the usefulness of guns, owning guns, and defending the right to own guns!! Spread the word whenever you can!

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Talk you out of an M&P10?
OK. Challenge accepted.
Ruger SR-762.
There. Wasn't that easy? And, it's gas system doesn't **** where it eats.
 
Ruger SR-762...it's gas system doesn't **** where it eats.

So what? Doesn't mean the Ruger can do anything the M&P-10 cannot. The Ruger isn't any more reliable, more accurate or any easier to clean. In fact, the piston of the Ruger is harder to clean, more difficult to keep lubed, subjected to more heat and is a smaller diameter than the piston of the M&P-10. Not seeing any advantage here
 
So what? Doesn't mean the Ruger can do anything the M&P-10 cannot. The Ruger isn't any more reliable, more accurate or any easier to clean. In fact, the piston of the Ruger is harder to clean, more difficult to keep lubed, subjected to more heat and is a smaller diameter than the piston of the M&P-10. Not seeing any advantage here

Reliability and accuracy are unique to each rifle. I'm sure there are individual M&P 10 rifles that are 'more accurate' or 'more reliable' than some SR762 rifles and there are also some SR762 rifles that are 'more accurate' or 'more reliable' than some M&P 10 rifles.

It takes me about 3 minutes to remove the piston from my SR762, clean it, and replace it. All I do is use a tooth brush and some Hoppe's #9 to clean the piston & its cylinder and I only do that once in every 10 or so range sessions. Lubrication of the piston is not required nor is it recommended. Light lubrication of the bolt & carrier is all that is recommended. So far as the Ruger piston being subjected to more heat than the M&P10 piston, please share how you measured the heat being applied to each piston. I'm genuinely curious. When you speak of the M&P10 piston I assume you are referring to its bolt?

Bud's has the M&P10 currently listed for $1269.00 and the SR762 for $1542.00. If I buy a M&P10 and add Samson BUIS, an aluminum forearm, and 2 additional PMags, (all of which are included with the Ruger) I'm going to spend right at $450.00. So now I've got the M&P10 I want & I've spent about $1700.00---BUT---I still don't have a piston rifle.

I started out trying to buy a M&P10 when they first came out. I couldn't find one and so I put it on hold for a while. When I started looking again I found the SR762 and gave it a hard look. After a while I bought one & I'm happy with it. Everybody gets to pick their own favorites and since the OP asked to be talked out of buying a M&P 10, I'm simply offering my experience.
 
For me it was the 18" barrel being more important than the piston system. I like piston guns fine (I own a SCAR 17S), but don't have any problems with direct impingement either. Truthfully, I'd have been happy with either rifle.
 
Reliability and accuracy are unique to each rifle...Everybody gets to pick their own favorites and since the OP asked to be talked out of buying a M&P 10, I'm simply offering my experience.

The argument was put forth that the "piston" Ruger clearly makes it the "Easy Button" choice because of it's superiority. My point is that having the piston in the gas block does not make it better.

The standard AR system uses a piston and yes, it's the tail of the bolt. It's subjected to less heat for two reasons:
1) It's exposed to less gas
2) The gas cools after it enters the gas block and travels along the gas tube

As it is generally accepted that the PIGB (Piston In Gas Block) design is not to be lubed, coupled with the higher heat it's exposed to, carbon build up on the piston is hard, making it more difficult to remove. With the piston inside the carrier, the shooter only needs to occasionally add a drop or two of oil in the carrier exhaust port to help keep the carbon build up soft, making it easier to remove.

Is this reason enough to avoid the PIGB design of the Ruger? Of course not. We know the PIGB design in general is very successful. Take the M14, FAL and Garand, for example. But despite the internet propaganda, the PIGB design doesn't bring any advantages to the AR family of weapons and has it's own set of foibles
 
I can't speak about the Ruger 7.62, because I have no experience with one. You state the piston rifle isn't more reliable and many would argue that point. The AK-47 is considered by many to be on of the most reliable combat rifles to see action. Funny it happens to be a long stroke piston design. My M&P 10 would not shoot both suppressed and non suppressed reliable. My PWS MK220 shoots either without any issues,but it came from the factory with an adjustable gas block. My cleaning intervals increased dramatically when going to the piston rifle as well. Needless to say the M&P 10 found a new home. Not here to bash S&W because I have other S&W weapons, just saying there are two sides to every story.
 
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