Talk to me about Chronographs

[carpriver]

I have been reloading for awhile and have never felt the need for a chronograph, Now I have several different pistol powders that I want to develop loads for. I want to develop light loads for plinking and training, I have arthritis and it is starting to create some problems with my wrists. But I still want to have the ability to shoot full power loads.

And I guess I want to be sure I am getting the most out of my loads as well as improving accuracy of my loads. would this be a reason for investing in a chronograph?

The powders I have on hand are CFE 2 bottles, Hp-38 2 bottles, AA#2 7 pounds, AA#5 6 pounds
universal 2 bottles, titegroup 1 bottle, SR7625 5 bottles. ramshot comp half a bottle.

my research tells me the simplest to use with less likely of shooting the Chronograph is LabRadar. So let the information flow,

I load for 9mm, 40cal, 38spl, 44spl 44mag., 45ACP, 45 Colt, M1 carbine, 5.56, 308win,

 

[OKFC05]

If you get the labradar, you will be the most popular guy at your club with people wanting to use it. Excellent but pricey.


You didn't say what calibers you load, but a chronograph can certainly see what you are getting from YOUR guns, and is a fun hobby into itself. As to getting better accuracy, well, chrono variance and group size don't always correlate well, especially at usual short pistol distances. Long range rifle shooters can get downright religious about reducing load variance.

 

[T2C]

I've been using a $100 Competition Electronics chronograph for close to 20 years. If you take precautions, you should be able to shoot between the chronograph and sky screens without any problems.

A chronograph is a handy piece of kit for load development. What I like most about them is that I can verify muzzle velocities when changing powders or using the same brand and type of powder from a different lot.

 

[njl]

You could shoot several chronographs and not spend as much as one labradar.

 

[muddocktor]

You could shoot several chronographs and not spend as much as one labradar.

And this is quoted for truth!

The LabRadar unit looks fantastic, but was much more than what I wanted to spend. A couple of years ago I bought the Caldwell Ballistic Chronograph and found it much less than satisfactory. They are supposedly sending me yet another replacement, but I'm not holding my breath. A few weeks ago I went ahead and bought a Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital chrony along with the Bluetooth module to connect it to my smartphone and I've done 1 range visit with it so far and I am happy.

 

[Nemo288]

I have the ProChrono, a Magnetospeed and the LabRadar.
The only one easy to use with handguns at an indoor range is the LabRadar.
If you can afford it get it.
No setting up down range if it's possible to do so at all.
Everything is right there beside you .. literally inches away.
I recommend using a tripod unless your bench is concrete.
Ours are plastic and bounce.
The LabRadar wants to be as stable as possible.
The readings are slightly off from the ProChrono but will be good for developing loads.
Search for threads in here about the LabRadar.
I published a comparative test I did using both last summer.

The learning curve is a little steeper than the optical or magnetic chronos but you will get it within a day or 2.
The trick is to get as close as possible to the chrono without subjecting it to too much blast.
A revolver needs to have the cylinder entirely in front of the unit.

This thing produces much more data than just a single velocity reading.
It can and will record the velocity continuously for the bullet's entire flight.
You can pick 5 ranges to display the velocity on the screen for each shot but hidden in a file is the whole darn thing.
This allows you to calculate the actual BC of a bullet at the range you are going to use it at.
Big bore bullets will track to longer range than those skinny .22's.

 

[hdwhit]

Used a Shooting Chrony for more than two decades. I get generally repeatable results from it.

I've hit the supports for the skyscreens a few times over the years, but I make my own replacements out of milk cartons and bamboo skewers in place of the aluminum rods and plastic screens supplied by the factory and my results are still comparable.

 

[Twoboxer]

Nemo288 gave you the details on the Labradar - I'll only correct him by saying the Prochrono is only a little off from the Labradar . . . if you set the optical chrono up carefully and identically each time.

Nearly equal in accuracy and costing less is the MagnetoSpeed, but it attaches to your barrel so (a) it changes POI and (b) can't be used on many pistols and some revolvers. If you believe in barrel tuners, then the MagnetoSpeed probably also has an affect on group size when attached directly to a barrel.

Unlike the above types, optical chronos must be set up downrange when the range is cold, are negatively affected by changes in lighting, lack of light, and weather, and for most of us require a ready supply of Purple Hearts OTOH, they cost a LOT less and can give you the info you need.

Having a CED M2, a MagnetoSpeed V1, and a Labradar . . . I can tell you there's nothing like a Labradar but it may well be overkill for your actual needs.

 

[Wise_A]

And I guess I want to be sure I am getting the most out of my loads as well as improving accuracy of my loads. would this be a reason for investing in a chronograph?

It may be an unpopular opinion, but no.

If you're interested in tighter groups, your best bet is to invest in some bags or even a Ransom Rest. The latter would be rather extreme option, and really only worth doing if you're shooting very precisely at very long ranges (think 50 yards or so).

A chronograph is really more of a diagnostic tool than anything else. If you're getting inaccurate ammunition, and you chrono the load and get erratic results, that can be meaningful. It's also handy when you're consciously working up a load--a nonlinear relationship between velocity gains and increases in charge weight is a sign that you're getting close to the top.

At the same time, you can have exceptionally accurate ammunition that produces somewhat erratic velocities. The most accurate load is rarely the one that chrono's the best.

So is a chrono worth getting? Sure. It's a fun tool to use. But it's not a tool you really need.

The powders I have on hand are CFE 2 bottles, Hp-38 2 bottles, AA#2 7 pounds, AA#5 6 pounds
universal 2 bottles, titegroup 1 bottle, SR7625 5 bottles. ramshot comp half a bottle.

You never mentioned caliber specifics, but HP-38 is stellar for producing light recoil in .45 AP. It's fairly low-impact in .38 Spl, but I've yet to really try down-loading below the starting load. Bullseye and WST have been my traditional low-recoil .38 Spl powders.

Hodgdon Clays is another noted low-recoil .45 powder, but I've never seen any on the shelves locally. And lots of guys rave about the AA powders.

my research tells me the simplest to use with less likely of shooting the Chronograph is LabRadar. So let the information flow,

It's all about the setup.

I like to place the chrono at 7 yards, and set up a blank paper target at 10. The chrono itself should be 6-8" below the height of the muzzle. An aiming point on the paper is made or placed at muzzle height--bring a tape measure to make this easier. And an adjustable-height tripod is invaluable. The gun itself is rested fairly close to the muzzle, to make it harder to drop the muzzle and hit the chrono.

Some report that placing tape on the screen legs helps with aiming, but I've never bothered.

I also shoot slowly, especially with heavier calibers that might induce a flinch.

Brand-wise, I personally quite like my Shooting Chrony. I got one with a remote display and control, which I rather like.

And for the price of one LabRadar, you can afford to shoot several less-expensive chronographs. The LabRadar really shines:

--in sub-optimal lighting (indoors, shooting close to dusk or dawn, etc)
--with very heavy rifle calibers, especially with muzzle breaks, where the muzzle blast would cause incorrect readings on a traditional chrono, or even blow it over
--on very busy ranges where setting up a traditional chrono would be a huge hassle

 

[MN2944]

I started with a Chrony about 20 years ago, moved to Oehler within a year and now have a LabRadar. I never shot any of them, but the Labradar is vastly superior due to the ease of set up. Getting an optical chronograph lined up down range is a pain when other shooters are around. The fact that you can pull the SD card and load the data analysis to an Excel spreadsheet makes it even better.

 

[fredj338]

I agree with everything wise-a said but his recommendation for any of the Chrony line. They just have crappy screens & your bullet placement has to be very precise, why they get shot, a lot.
So like most things, spending a bit more $$ will get you a better tool. If you use it a lot as I do, then I want a quality piece of gear. I have an oehler, bought after struggling with an early pact unit. It always works & easily allows me to shoot groups at 300 & still get readings.
I have only seen the Labrador in use, seemed pretty simple & nothing to align. If I was buying, it would probably be that.

 

[Tom S.]

For decades Oehler has been the gold standard that all others were measured by. New, it has a price that competes with the LabRadar but you might find a used one cheaper.

 

[JBnTx]

Get The LabRadar. It's worth every penny.

My LabRadar is my first chronograph so I have nothing to compare it to, but it has changed my entire reloading experience.

It's easy to set up, accurate and even fun to use.

It's really taught me a lot about reloading, powders and the different calibers.

Forget the traditional chronographs and get a LabRadar.

 

[AveragEd]

If you're going to be a serious chrono guy, buy an expensive one. But if you're going to be a chrono hobbyist like most of us, one of the $100 ones will serve you well. I've sprung for two "better" ones and came back to a ProChrono Digital with their Bluetooth adapter. I compared readings with a Pact (when it actually worked) and a CED M2 and the difference was in single digits so I see no need to buy anything else.

Ed

 

[Wise_A]

I agree with everything wise-a said but his recommendation for any of the Chrony line. They just have crappy screens & your bullet placement has to be very precise, why they get shot, a lot.
So like most things, spending a big more $$ will get you a better tool. If you use it a lot as I do, then I want a quality piece of gear. I have an oehler, bought after struggling with an early pact unit. It always works & easily allows me to shoot groups at 300 & still get readings.
I have only seen the Labrador in use, seemed pretty simple & nothing to align. If I was buying, it would probably be that.

Heh, I knew that was coming.

The Chrony's not been bad to me. The only time I really get a lot of errors is dusk. Since I started using it only when the sun was above the trees, I don't think I've had a single error.

But same deal as usual between me and Fred--I also would not mind an Oehler, but hey, money's money.

The LabRadar is definitely a neat piece of kit. If the cash for one isn't that dear to you, it's definitely worth it.

 

[otisrush]

Another ProChrono + Bluetooth Adapter user here. I haven't had it very long, nor used it all that much. I've never compared its results to others. I assume it's accurate enough.

I'm simply logging here this is what I'm using. It is easy to use. I like the Bluetooth adapter A LOT. It keeps string statistics easily.

I read a number of months back that there are two types of chrono users: Those that have shot their chrono and those that have not. I'm already in the former cateogry. I nicked one of the metal rods holding up one of the screens. Following that episode I got some wooden dowling in case it ever happens again.

OR

 

[Gamecock]

I like that my CED M2 has the electronics back on the table with me, and the cheaper parts down range.

One surprising cost of a chrony is that I had to buy a high quality tripod to hold it. Replacing the tripod would cost more than replacing the screens.

On the CED M2, it won't work late afternoon as the sun gets low. And screens need to be set out about as far as the cables will allow, lest reading will be of the muzzle blast. I was weirded out when I got 2,400 fps from a .38 Super.

In spite of what all kinds of people will tell you, the chronograph will not tell you PRESSURE.

Wise A gives good advice: 'It's also handy when you're consciously working up a load--a nonlinear relationship between velocity gains and increases in charge weight is a sign that you're getting close to the top.'

I had conflicting references for N105 in .38 Super with 125 gr bullets. Max was 10.4 grains, yet old VV docs said 11.0 grains. Beyond 10.4, I saw only slight increase in velocity from added powder. Hence 10.4 is correct max for my gun.

 

[carpriver]

Thanks for all the comments, you guys always provide the best information.

 

[fredj338]

Heh, I knew that was coming.

The Chrony's not been bad to me. The only time I really get a lot of errors is dusk. Since I started using it only when the sun was above the trees, I don't think I've had a single error.

But same deal as usual between me and Fred--I also would not mind an Oehler, but hey, money's money.

The LabRadar is definitely a neat piece of kit. If the cash for one isn't that dear to you, it's definitely worth it.

Just my exp using all kinds of diff chronos. I even had one with foil screen back in 1975. The Chrony line all use the same crappy screens. The bullet must be placed exactly over the center of the screens, no more than 8" high, on good days. So makes aligning at say 300yds, a bit more diff. They are accurate, just as accurate as the Oehler, but you get far more errors with the Chrony.
We did a test with a Chrony Master, CED & Oehler, back to back to back. Fired 2 strings, then swapped positions so they all had the same position once. The Oehler never, missed a shot, the CED maybe 5%, the Chrony, almost 50%. The tiny screens just don't allow any deviation.
So for the hobby guy that wants to check PF once & awhile, Chrony will work. If you use it for rifle load dev, I would pony up for at least a CED. FWIW, I also don't like shooting at the guts of the machine, so that also eliminates many of the brands where the screens & chrono are the same unit.

 

[DIYguy]

Interesting timing for this post. I just spent the last three days working up new recipes and then heading to the range each day to Chrono (New Year weekend)
I picked up the Competition Electronics Pro with the Bluetooth DigitalLink. I think the DigitalLink really makes a difference. I like being able to use my iPhone to monitor my shot strings, temp, baro and a long list of data and then send the data to my computer and load into a spreadsheet.
I did find the Chrono a bit picky about light. First day was bright sunshine and worked fine at first until angle of sun changed then gave some odd readings. 2nd and 3rd day overcast and so long as not under the range canopy worked fine.
I use a full size tripod set up about 7' to 10' out where it can get a view of the sky. Bench rest pistol, check accuracy on target, take notes. Back to shop, load up some more. Load up about (20) rounds of each bullet weight and powder weight, back to range, repeat.

 

[Twoboxer]

. . . I use a full size tripod set up about 7' to 10' out where it can get a view of the sky. Bench rest pistol, check accuracy on target, take notes. Back to shop, load up some more. Load up about (20) rounds of each bullet weight and powder weight, back to range, repeat.

While it may not apply to most folks needs, I was recently able to use my Labradar to chrono all shots taken at targets every 100yds out to 1200yds. That helped initially to make the right calls on that day with that weather at that location and then confirmed or eliminated MV as a factor in missed shots.

Given that all the targets were at different angles at this range/cattle farm, it would have taken two people a fair amount of time to do that with an optical chrono. That just isn't practical with any other than perhaps the initial test shots. And a MagnetoSpeed would have impacted POI and most likely group size.

 

[andyo5]

I have a Pact Model 1 XP. Cost is $130 (through Midway) complete with sensors, skyscreens, and all mounting hardware. It has been reliable and repeatable.
Unlike the Chrony products, the electronic computer unit sits on the bench next to you. Only the sensors, skyscreens, and mounting unit are out in front of you.
It will give you velocity for each individual shot and statistics for shot strings such as average velocity, standard deviation, average deviation, velocity extreme spread, etc. But you can't download to another device so you will have to write it down.

Pact now makes a Professional Model for 100 bucks more. It can print out and download to an SD card or a PC. It also calculates power and trajectory data.

 

[AveragEd]

I had a Pact - for about a day. It flat would not work and when I called the number they strongly recommend you call with problems and told them my range faces west and the light was behind me, they told me to turn the unit so the light was onto the photocells. When I advised the guy that doing so would have the chronograph positioned across the range, he said, "You gotta do what you gotta do." I did - I returned the Pact to MidwayUSA.

I then bought a CED M2. It worked when it felt like it and numerous calls to their office not too far from me finally resulted in my speaking with the head engineer, Charles. Over the course of weeks, Charles sent me a complete new M2, piece by piece, but the results were the same - my old ProChrono would always work but the M2 was intermittant.

I returned that one to CED and bought another ProChrono with the Bluetooth connectivity. It always works!

Ed

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

"Twernt" many players in the cronograph field 25 years ago......When my wife bought me my Oehler 35P.....it came in a gun case holding 3 sky screens/2 ft & 4 ft spacer bars/tripod stands/side & overhead diffusers/roll of paper and the crono with built in printer......It gives 2 velocity readings for each shot..........And has and still works great..........

 

[loc n load]

+1

What Mike said. I have a 35P that I have used for years, have shot it alongside all other chrono's out there with the exception of the Lab radar. Wouldn't part with mine.

 

[Vortec MAX]

I have a CED M2, a Magnetospeed, and an Oehler 35P. I used to have a Shooting Chrony.

The only one I ever find myself using is the Oehler. It just works without a fuss. Hardly ever misses a shot.

Mike

 

[Nemo288]

Went to the indoor range today with the LabRadar, the 696-1, and some 44 special reloads.
Shot for group and velocity at the same time.
LabRadar did not miss a single shot now that I have the proper routine down.
I set the distance to 6" and shoot off bags right beside the radar with almost the entire revolver in front of the radar's front face.
Had shooters on both side of me whacking away with 9's.
They did not trigger the radar once.
I use a laser boresighting module placed on top of the radar to aim it.

The solid copper monolithic bullets appear to have the strongest return signal followed by the copper plated and then the cast numbers including coated.
I did not shoot any jacketed today. I expect them to behave like the solids.
All that is as it should be.

I'll be writing up some of the results in another thread.
It would have been impossible for me to have used any other chrono under the circumstances.

 

[LD-Ordie]

Another positive vote for the Competition Electronics Pro with the Bluetooth DigitalLink. So as others have mentioned, it's real picky about sunlight hitting the sensors. My fix was to cut a piece of cardboard and using some small spring loaded clamps to attach it to the upright wires or the plastic things they attach to. Works great! The blue tooth adapter is way too cool and makes it a snap to document a dozen rounds, then upload it to my computer via a spread sheet. It's a great tool for working up your loads, and having a quick and easy reference for later viewing. It's even Mac Friendly!

 

[Big Cholla]

I handloaded for 35 years and thought I really knew my stuff. Until I got my first Oehler 35. I quickly found that there were nuances in handloading results that I was overlooking out of lack of information. I used that first Oehler for 25 years and then gave it to a cousin and got myself a brand new Oehler 35P. I would 'like' to have a LabRadar, but at my age it just isn't justified to spend that much.

Casual about your reloading? Buy one of the $100 chronos. Serious about reloading, especially for accuracy, buy the Oehler 35P or the LabRadar............. Just my humble opinion, .........

A Story: Back when I first getting acquainted with the first Oehler 35, I had a question that with a little patience and reading I could have answered. But, on an impluse I called the Oehler company. I asked the young lady 'help' person my question. She said, "Gee, I don't know that answer, but Dr. Oehler is walking by, perhaps he can answer." Well blow me down but Dr. Oehler got on the phone with me and we chatted like old friends for about 20 minutes. He quickly straightened me out on my 'problem' and then went into just how I was using my Oehler chronograph and was it giving me what I wanted and did I have any suggestions. I was dumbfounded at first but quickly picked up my end of the conversation and got what I needed and hopefully then added to Dr. Oehler's understanding of what one user was doing with his chronograph in the field. ..............

 

[Nemo288]

Before I got the LabRadar I adapted my ProChrono for indoor use.
When Caldwell first came out with their V.1 chrono it was offered with an optional infrared light kit that mounts like light baffles over the screen detectors.
It came with both battery pack and wall wart 110v adapter.
I got just the light kit and it fit just fine on the ProChrono with a little persuasion.
After using it at the indoor range which has fluorescent lights (worked great)
I got tired of the hassle of setting it up and adjusting it when I could even get to it.
In the 30 years I have used the 2 ProChronos I have had I have never shot one to death.
Current one has a couple little dings from shrapnel when I let the range owner shoot over it.
Suspect he was shooting plated bullets too fast and they disintegrated.

I notice Competition Electronics now offers a light kit for the ProChrono but it has no battery pack.
I would need to pack a long extension cord to use 100V at my range. There are no convenient outlets.
Recommend the Caldwell lights if they are still a thing.

The 95 on the ProChrono screen is from shooting a rubber band as fast as I could across it.
Kinda told me the lighting kit was working.