Talking points to rationally discuss......

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cougar14

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gun control issues with everyone. Lots of people just start yelling, don't seem to want to listen to what we call facts and what they call propaganda. So, that being said, I think the real problem is not gun related at all, but is best visualized by why this kind of stuff didn't happen before just a few years ago. I believe the real problem lies in the upbringing of our young, the "hands-off" notion, the loss of socializing with peers, level of violence in all forms of media influencing them, and the idolizing of "the dark side", leading to an entire generation of youth who have no goals, no structure, and no respect for anything, including life. What say you?
 
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I lump it all into trying to talk about, Politics, religion, abortion,death penalty, sexual preference etc, etc. You just can not change some folks opinions at these hot button issues.
 
My Sister

is a rabid anti-gunner. Logic has no place in her thought processes. She knows she is right and no one will ever change her mind. I do the only thing I can do under the circumstances – after listening to her, I go out and buy another gun!

Definition of a rabid Republican: a liberal who's just been mugged and robbed.
 
Most of the Liberal crowd will NOT hold a sane, sensible,
conversation on the issue. They believe that ANYTHING or
ANYBODY whose opinions and thoughts differ from their own
are not even entitled to Freedom of Speech. But when their own
agendas are affected( in any way shape or form ) or infringed
upon they scream bloody murder. They then resort to name calling
or labeling. It's just the way of the Liberal. The Media has supported
this way of life for them for so long they can't even imagine that
their views may be wrong or mis-guided.

Chuck
 
I would bring up strong gun control states such as New York, Illinois, and California, specifically cities such as NYC, Chicago and LA. Have THEM explain why, is spite of very restrictive gun control laws, gun crime is still happening.
 
chud333 said:
Most of the Liberal crowd will NOT hold a sane, sensible,
conversation on the issue. They believe that ANYTHING or
ANYBODY whose opinions and thoughts differ from their own
are not even entitled to Freedom of Speech. But when their own
agendas are affected( in any way shape or form ) or infringed
upon they scream bloody murder. They then resort to name calling
or labeling.

Chuck
Click to expand...

Is this an example of name calling or labeling. There are a lot of pro 2A gun owners and gun carriers out there who are well educated and perfectly able to listen to and argue from the facts of a situation. Frankly, the extreme views of conservatives scare me as much as the extreme views of liberals. As a side light, it seems higher education leads to developing liberal tendencies-something to think about.
 
Speaking of today's youth and their mores', I watched a program on the History Channel yesterday entitled......"HIPPIES"...it was all about Haight Asbury, LSD, cocaine, entertainment & recreational sex, etc., and how it got started in the 60's by the youth looking for a Utopia in which they could be totally free. Anything and everything...with...NO responsibility.

Today is not much different.

If you get a chance, watch it, it is very interesting.
 
mwtdvm said:
... She knows she is right and no one will ever change her mind. I do the only thing I can do under the circumstances – after listening to her, I go out and buy another gun! ...
Click to expand...
This certainly illustrates the fact that every problem has a solution so long as all parties involved are willing to work together towards solving their differences.

So does she work with you and help carry the guns out to the car when you're done with the transfers?
 
dougb1946 said:
Is this an example of name calling or labeling. There are a lot of pro 2A gun owners and gun carriers out there who are well educated and perfectly able to listen to and argue from the facts of a situation. Frankly, the extreme views of conservatives scare me as much as the extreme views of liberals. As a side light, it seems higher education leads to developing liberal tendencies-something to think about.
Click to expand...

It's called the indoctrination of the gullible.

....and you are stereotyping Conservatives as uneducated, which is laughable.
 
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Airpark said:
Speaking of today's youth and their mores', I watched a program on the History Channel yesterday entitled......"HIPPIES"...it was all about Haight Asbury, LSD, cocaine, entertainment & recreational sex, etc., and how it got started in the 60's by the youth looking for a Utopia in which they could be totally free. Anything and everything...with...NO responsibility.

Today is not much different.

If you get a chance, watch it, it is very interesting.
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the correlation........

This was the start of the the downward slide of the US and the "Hippies" were the self obsessed 80's business moguls, the Enron people of yesterday and the parents who created the dysfunctional youth of today.

Again, JMO.
 
Just a gentle reminder for a hot topic..

Thanks...

1. We ask that you conduct yourselves as ladies and gentlemen. Civil Discourse and Courteous Behavior shall be the norm.

2. Remember- opinions will differ. Get over it. State your opinion calmly, and allow others to state theirs. Discussion will be fine, but there is no need to take a thread into a verbal fistfight or shouting match.

3. Do NOT descend into personal attacks on a member.
Naiveté, or viewpoints different from yours are no reason to call a member an idiot or moron.
If a poster is obnoxious, report him and ignore him.
 
There is a distinctive difference between liberal politics and liberal education. Liberal education means a lot of..everything...math, science, history, art, music, etc. It is like a "liberal" amount of whiskey, or water, or money. Over the years definitions of Liberal and Conservative in politics has changed. It has changed a lot in my lifetime.
No one person knows the answer to "gun control" that will satisfy all. I think NO answer or solution will satisfy all. But is it possible to satisfy most? Rights vs. Safety is how I see it. I wish I know how to balance it all. :(
 
Minds that are made up have no wish to be bothered by facts. Highly polarised views get a lot of media time because it generates "interest", AKA advertising money.

In past days those in the media would have listened while rolling their eyes to themselves and never published/broadcast the extremes. These days not only are they scared of not getting the ratings, but NOT reporting what is said to you could be construed as infringing the crazy's 1st amendment rights. Yeah, I agree that concept is BS as there is no law that says the media have to broadcast all they see and hear, even when it is the truth.

If you think the gun/politics/abortion folk can be bloody minded about this, try talking rationally to conspiracy theorists. If you question anything they say, you are accused of being part of the conspiracy. What is sad is that I think they believe it.

While the media continues to be ratings driven and keep on giving undue weight to the extremists and plain fruit loops in our society, the more impressionable folks there will be who see it and pick up on it, often because they think it is a reflection of the majority of our society that was hidden from them. What a crock, they are the fringe. You do not hear about those of us in the middle because we are just too boring for the modern media industry.
 
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cougar14 said:
gun control issues with everyone. Lots of people just start yelling, don't seem to want to listen to what we call facts and what they call propaganda. So, that being said, I think the real problem is not gun related at all, but is best visualized by why this kind of stuff didn't happen before just a few years ago. I believe the real problem lies in the upbringing of our young, the "hands-off" notion, the loss of socializing with peers, level of violence in all forms of media influencing them, and the idolizing of "the dark side", leading to an entire generation of youth who have no goals, no structure, and no respect for anything, including life. What say you?
Click to expand...

...I think you are exactly right...but that's because you thought it out logically instead of reacting emotionally.
 
dougb1946 said:
Is this an example of name calling or labeling. There are a lot of pro 2A gun owners and gun carriers out there who are well educated and perfectly able to listen to and argue from the facts of a situation. Frankly, the extreme views of conservatives scare me as much as the extreme views of liberals. As a side light, it seems higher education leads to developing liberal tendencies-something to think about.
Click to expand...
Glad you think so sir. As of yet i have not been able to
find "any" to hold a conversation and explain to me the
merits of Gun Control in a rational manner.
There are and have been some who would be called
"Trolls" on this fine "pro-gun" site.
If my views of wanting to keep my arms makes me
"Extremist" in your eyes so be it.
Maybe those with higher education do not have all
the answers after all ???
Something else to ponder. As another member has
so eloquently stated in the past. Go in Peace.

Chuck
 
One problem that is always prominent

is the constant labeling. If someone came from another planet and could understand the English language he would think that everyone is either conservative or liberal. Then people of various beliefs start seeing everything related to guns in either black or white. Thus, there is a predominate belief that there is nothing in between the two extremes of belief. The first thing we should all do is top using these two labels so much and with so much anger and hate and antipathy.
 
cougar14 said:
gun control issues with everyone. Lots of people just start yelling, don't seem to want to listen to what we call facts and what they call propaganda.
Click to expand...

I have learned that there is a huge difference between the "NONS" and the "ANTIS". This can be true for ANY topic of debate.
A "non" can be talked to and valid points can be brought up.
An "anti" is unwilling to hear the other side's points at all.

For instance, I talked to a woman that was a non-hunter (not an anti) once. She was loaded with false pre-conceived ideas about hunters. She looked at us all as a bunch of redneck weekend warriors out in the woods, just blasting away at sounds and movements with glee.
I explained to her that she was mistaken. I explained that I understood the weight of taking an animal's life, and that I felt a personal responsibility to deliver a quick, painless death, and to treat the animal with respect, etc.
When I took the time to politely explain to her why I hunted, and how, I was able to convince her that she was mistaken in her ideas. She actually admitted that she was wrong in her assumptions and THANKED me for taking the time to explain a hunter's point of view to her.

The point is, that she was a "non", not an "anti".
Little good can be done by trying to argue with an anti. They are usually unwilling to hear it. If we act mad, nasty, and antagonistic, we only serve to convince them that they were right all along. The best approach is politely disagree and leave it at that.

The lesson I have learned is that we need to pick our battles, and be respectful. We won't sway an anti. I think the best we can do is to educate the "nons" and prevent them from becoming "antis".
 
chud333 said:
Glad you think so sir. As of yet i have not been able to
find "any" to hold a conversation and explain to me the
merits of Gun Control in a rational manner.
Click to expand...

My point was that there are liberals who carry, rabid liberals who actually own and use guns and are pro 2A. Granted, some of their ideas are strange, but some conservative pro 2A site are a little strange also. Lumping all liberals as anti 2A is a mistake. There are probably conservatives that are anti 2A.

There are and have been some who would be called
"Trolls" on this fine "pro-gun" site.
Click to expand...
Disagreement or questioning is not "trolling", it is disagreement or questioning.

If my views of wanting to keep my arms makes me "Extremist" in your eyes so be it.
Click to expand...
I own and use firearms. I possible qualify as having an arsenal. A small arsenal, but nice. I would like to keep my firearms. Never said anyone here was an extremist. I said that extremists on both sides of the fence bother me.

Maybe those with higher education do not have all
the answers after all ???
Click to expand...

No they don't. And the more education they have, the more likely they are to know they don't have all the answers. But higher education leading to liberal tendencies is a fact ,(College Makes Students More Liberal, but Not Smarter About Civics - Research - The Chronicle of Higher Education) not an accusation, and may be due to propaganda, wider world view, or some other cause. I don't see people as one dimensional. I live in a rural town near a college town and see a lot of the liberal and conservative extremes. I also see the majority of people who are more moderate in their views, and are a blend of liberal on some topics, conservative on others.
Click to expand...
 
Have you ever known anyone to change their mind on anything? A person has their mind made up on any controversal subject and when challanged on it automaticly protect their view. On politics I cant understand all the money put in tv ads trying to get votes. Once we know who all the canidates are, where they are comeing from, how many change their minds nine months later?
What I cant understand is people that still follow certain politicians that are caught in repeated lies and still defend them.
The other day I was talking to a left leaning younger woman and she was bragging up on some socialist professer at her collage who had gave a talk on how peaceful people were suppose to be compared to now that had lived 10,000 years ago. I asked her how he knew that as it was like 6,000 years before any recorded history? That did shake her for a few secounds and then she changed the subject.
Maybe you can influence a very young person or kid, but save your breath on anyone much older than 15 as a person already has their moral compass dialed in by then and wont change their course with facts. The ONLY times I have seen it is when a unGodly person converts to christanity.
 
Many years ago a now deceased friend of mine quoted me something that I have never forgoten & I beleive is even more relevant now than then;

"A man convinced against his will,
Is of the same opinion still"


Art
 
The problem that I often see is that conservatives are busy doing things like running companies or building bridges or fighting wars so they don't have the time or inclination to memorize tons of obscure facts. So when a liberal yells, "Don't you realize that 50,000 children die from gun accidents every day!" we don't have facts to counter that. Even if we do have facts at hand, the liberals will usually yell rude things and then walk away.

Often a gun control proponent will lead with "What's the matter with common sense gun laws?" To which I will reply, "What's your idea of common sense?" The list starts: criminals can't own guns, crazy people can't own guns, no machine guns, background checks . . . When I explain that we already have those on the books as well as hundreds of other laws, I often get called a liar. If I offer to give them my copies of ATF's pubs on gun laws, they usually cry out "Male bovine excrement!" and stomp off.
 
Fat Old Guy said:
The problem that I often see is that conservatives are busy doing things like running companies or building bridges or fighting wars so they don't have the time or inclination to memorize tons of obscure facts. So when a liberal yells, "Don't you realize that 50,000 children die from gun accidents every day!" we don't have facts to counter that. Even if we do have facts at hand, the liberals will usually yell rude things and then walk away.

Often a gun control proponent will lead with "What's the matter with common sense gun laws?" To which I will reply, "What's your idea of common sense?" The list starts: criminals can't own guns, crazy people can't own guns, no machine guns, background checks . . . When I explain that we already have those on the books as well as hundreds of other laws, I often get called a liar. If I offer to give them my copies of ATF's pubs on gun laws, they usually cry out "Male bovine excrement!" and stomp off.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make these statements and assumptions:

1. there are just as many liberals out there "running companies or building bridges or fighting wars". To say otherwise is bogus

2. there are just as many conservatives that will have the same reaction when you try to reason with them about abortion, religion and a multitude of other so called "morality" issues

3. there are plenty of gun loving and toting liberals out there, they probably outnumber the vocal minority who make our lives difficult when some idiot decides to go on a shooting spree
 
nipster said:
1. there are just as many liberals out there "running companies or building bridges or fighting wars". To say otherwise is bogus
Click to expand...

There might be a few but I'd never say "just as many." Liberals run foundations and look for ways to give people things that they didn't earn. Conservatives work.

2. there are just as many conservatives that will have the same reaction
Click to expand...

That hasn't been my experience but I'm one of those wishy-washy conservatives who is just to the right of G. Gordon Liddy.

there are plenty of gun loving and toting liberals out there, they probably outnumber the vocal minority who make our lives difficult when some idiot decides to go on a shooting spree
Click to expand...

There are a few and the ones that I have met were in favor of one or more of the following: magazine limits, assault rifle bans, registration, licensing, and a "needs" test.
 
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