tomf52
Member
Shooting to the left with a random pattern: shooter is flinching and jerking the trigger.
Target Interpretation
- Thread starter forestswin
- Start date
BTW
By the way. Make your target loads subsonic. Less than 1100 fps (depending on where you are). If you can get some swaged HBWC, they are a very accurate bullets when loaded around 800-900 fps. Solid wadcutters can be pushed harder, but it's still better to go subsonic.
By the way. Make your target loads subsonic. Less than 1100 fps (depending on where you are). If you can get some swaged HBWC, they are a very accurate bullets when loaded around 800-900 fps. Solid wadcutters can be pushed harder, but it's still better to go subsonic.
Last edited:
OP
forestswin
Member
I don't think the first 3 targets have random patterns. Seems to me they have sub groups.
OP
forestswin
Member
Rw I have some good subsonic loads, I am looking for hotter magnum loads with the harder alloys.
fredj338
Member
Not likely at just 25yds. Even 5gr diff in bullet wt isn't shifting POI, not even 40-50fps vel diff @ 25yds.
fredj338
Member
ThaT was a general reply to not being able to shoot groups & collect vel data at the same time. I do it all the time, even out to 300yds, you just have to have a good chrono (read not a Chrony).
Your setup sounds solid, if you are getting flyers, it's likley just you. I have good days & bad days shooting. Some days I can hold sub 3MOA with my scoped 44mag @ 100yds, some days I can't do it at 50yds, same gun, same ammo. Your good group with soft loads is telling me it's not the gun but you.
Forest,
I believe that was directed at my post as it was right after. I never said I could not shoot groups through a Chronograph. I just prefer not to. It was a suggestion for Forest.
No, I do not need a better one as you(Fred) do not know what kind I have, Read a few posts and the truth will be revealed.
A Comp Electronics Pro Chron Digital and I believe Forest has the same based on my recommendation (and others)
With all due respect, I would like to differ, as I personally know better. I got started bullet casting specifically because of a box of commercial .429" 240-grain SWCs. They were produced and marketed by the now defunct Marksman Bullet Company, and a cylinder full of them wouldn't stay on a pie plate at 50' with a load of 10 grains of Unique pushing them. When I weighed a sampling from the box there was a spread of 11 grains. I decided if I couldn't make a better bullet than that I would quit handguns altogether. Now, some 35 years and almost 100 moulds later, I have it down to where not only I shoot better groups, but anyone I have ever cast for, tells me they have never shot a better or more consistent bullet. Almost all of it is consistency in weight; it isn't me, because it isn't that hard to cast a good bullet if you have the alloy right and use a good mould.
Commercial casters use automatic machines with as many as eight, ten, or 12 different moulds. It doesn't take much of a screw up to change bullet weight by a few percent, and I know for a fact that will open up groups. I have proven it to myself on multiple occasions... Take a 158 and your pet load, then shoot the same load with 150s and tell me what your group does.
And I will give you another data point: why do you think Hensley and Gibbs moulds are so cherished, and go for such high prices? It is because of their consistency between cavities. The overwhelming majority of the moulds they produced were for handguns, and handguns aren't typically shot at 100 yard distances...
Last edited:
OP
forestswin
Member
you know its kind of funny, thats really the prognosis I was hoping for
I will take into account all the suggestions and possible issues.
Its really a nice bunch of tips, that you won't always find in the books, only experience
thanks again all
Pocketfisherman
Member
When you are working up a load in a revolver, I find it much easier to evaluate a "recipe" using only a single chamber of the cylinder for all rounds fired. And, shoot from a rest always and at least to 25yds. That is the best way to get meaningful consistent group data.
fredj338
Member
You can disagree, but you are still wrong. A small wt variation, up to 5gr or so in bullets over 100gr, is NOT going to affect POI much at 25yds, it's just reality. Whether a lead bullet will shoot to the same POI has more to do with bore fit & the bullet base. You can believe what you like, but I have proven it many, many times. Granted the more consistant the bullet wt is the more accurate they will shoot, in general, but saying 5gr of wt diff will change the POI at 25yds is just silly. IT would take a monummetal messed up mold to throw bullets that vary by 5gr, especailly in bullets under 250gr. My scoped 44mag will put bullets 245gr-270gr right on top of each other @ 25yds. Now out at 50yds & beyond, you would be right.
Last edited:
fredj338
Member
Forest,
I believe that was directed at my post as it was right after. I never said I could not shoot groups through a Chronograph. I just prefer not to. It was a suggestion for Forest.
No, I do not need a better one as you(Fred) do not know what kind I have, Read a few posts and the truth will be revealed.
A Comp Electronics Pro Chron Digital and I believe Forest has the same based on my recommendation (and others)
Your statement implied you could not physically do that with your choron. I was only stating it can easily be done wiht a good one. FOr me, shooting separate groups & vel dta is just wasting ammo.
m657
Member
OP:
I'm impressed with your inquiry methodology.
Q: in the photos you show at post #20, the label seems confusing.
One label seems to indicate "5g Unique" at the side while "Benchmark" at the bottom. Since I just loaded some rounds with "Benchmark" powder, I'm unsure what these labels indicate, unless your Unique load now is identified as your "benchmark" standard goal.
The lower target from the next target has 1 flier with a great central group of 5.
2 comments here:
1) Too often I also get "one flier" for reasons never completely verifiable;
2) My impression is your pistol in 12/12 is more accurate with Unique that with 2400 hotter load in 1/14.
If those groups are repeatable under the same recipes, and your fatigue factors are constant, there IS a mystery.
As an old mediocre Bulls eye/IHMSA participant, I have noted that some some days "Load 1" will perform very well, while on another day with nothing changed, my target tells me another story.
Having lost my OCD somewhere along the trail, my frustration with such variances has declined while my inability to 'splain "why" remains. Thus my 'competitor' career merged into on of being 'participant'.
Good luck on finding your answer, I'll be following the discussion.
I'm impressed with your inquiry methodology.
Q: in the photos you show at post #20, the label seems confusing.
One label seems to indicate "5g Unique" at the side while "Benchmark" at the bottom. Since I just loaded some rounds with "Benchmark" powder, I'm unsure what these labels indicate, unless your Unique load now is identified as your "benchmark" standard goal.
The lower target from the next target has 1 flier with a great central group of 5.
2 comments here:
1) Too often I also get "one flier" for reasons never completely verifiable;
2) My impression is your pistol in 12/12 is more accurate with Unique that with 2400 hotter load in 1/14.
If those groups are repeatable under the same recipes, and your fatigue factors are constant, there IS a mystery.
As an old mediocre Bulls eye/IHMSA participant, I have noted that some some days "Load 1" will perform very well, while on another day with nothing changed, my target tells me another story.
Having lost my OCD somewhere along the trail, my frustration with such variances has declined while my inability to 'splain "why" remains. Thus my 'competitor' career merged into on of being 'participant'.
Good luck on finding your answer, I'll be following the discussion.
Last edited:
14.8 gr. of 2400 is the MAX listed load for a jacketed Gold Dot. There is no .357 load listed by Alliant for 2400 and LSWC, only Bullseye and Unique. 14.5 seems like a tremendous amount of that powder behind a LSWC.
Stu
Stu
OP
forestswin
Member
OP:
I'm impressed with your inquiry methodology.
Q: in the photos you show at post #20, the label seems confusing.
One label seems to indicate "5g Unique" at the side while "Benchmark" at the bottom. Since I just loaded some rounds with "Benchmark" powder, I'm unsure what these labels indicate, unless your Unique load now is identified as your "benchmark" standard goal.
The lower target from the next target has 1 flier with a great central group of 5.
2 comments here:
1) Too often I also get "one flier" for reasons never completely verifiable;
2) My impression is your pistol in 12/12 is more accurate with Unique that with 2400 hotter load in 1/14.
If those groups are repeatable under the same recipes, and your fatigue factors are constant, there IS a mystery.
As an old mediocre Bulls eye/IHMSA participant, I have noted that some some days "Load 1" will perform very well, while on another day with nothing changed, my target tells me another story.
Having lost my OCD somewhere along the trail, my frustration with such variances has declined while my inability to 'splain "why" remains. Thus my 'competitor' career merged into on of being 'participant'.
Good luck on finding your answer, I'll be following the discussion.
sorry to create the confusion
I call the Hornady Swaged 158 grain SWC over 5 grains of Unique my "benchmark load", as it always shoots tight groups and pretty much POA. I start each range session with it and end with it - if its on target - I know its pretty much not me or the gun. Its a surveyors term - they start and end at benchmarks (known points) if something comes up "off" its their work not the benchmark.
its good to know other's get fliers - it seems I always get one to mess up a group. I've checked - it comes from different chambers - no rhyme or reason - just me
I don't understand the 12/12 and 1/14 comment, could you please explain more?
I do have several very good loads, one is the Unique load, but I'm trying out a new bullet and looking for a high powered load. I'm going to apply the comments/suggestion I've received and plan to re-shoot those loads. Hopefully the effort will give me better results.
thanks for the reply
OP
forestswin
Member
Stu
One Book / One Caliper lists a LSWC Lyman bullet 158 grain, linotype, max at 15.5 grains
the old Alliant book lists 158 LSWC max at 15.3 grains.
I don't know why, but Alliant only lists Speer bullets now.
Oregon Trail lists min at 14.2 and max at 15.3 grains of 2400 also
I've also worked my way up from 11.5 grains to 15.0 many times with very similar 158 LSWC over the past couple years.
Actually, I was hoping this bullet would do well around 12.5 to 13.0, THese over 14 grain loads are pretty snappy.
m657
Member
OP:
re: "I don't understand the 12/12 and 1/14 comment, could you please explain more?"
aren't those dates of your targets? 12/16/12 and 1/19/14?
I often date my own targets to help try to figure out what might be going on.
I have noted, against my own reluctance to believe it, that my own accuracy capacity does change with certain powders even when I stay in my own 'green zone' of some steps down from whatever the max may be. I seem to do best with slugs moving downrange in the 750-1000 fps more or less, regardless of caliber, boolit, or barrel length, and with powders such as HP38/W231; TightGroup; Trail Boss; Universal Clays. .
Not to step away from your target, rather to make a point of some kind of unknown load variables remaining just that. There has to be 'other variables' not as easily measured. I shot an ICORE match last week end, using a favored revolver with long established loads that have been highly accurate over the last 4 years. Usually the steel targets only stages, take only "1" each to hit the target. On 2 separate stages...yes, perhaps longer as there were 18 each, I unaccountably missed several in the last group not once or twice, but enough to have to reload not once but twice (!) thereby requiring FOR UNKNOWN REASONS 18 shots into about 2 or 3 stationary targets....steel poppers about 12"wide 4' tall and under 30' away!!!
Not so demanding as the holes in paper witness, yet the digital timer certainly noted some kind of error. Of course standing 2/hand hold is more prone to it's own kind of miss errors, but that was ridiculous.
Since I prefer steel to paper targets, my wobble factor is less demanding than bulls eyes, yet there is no steel target too big or too close you can't miss it.
The demands of ballistic target science is much like fly fishing IMHO.
You can have the right rod, right weather, right fly, right casting technique, etc. I'm convinced that sometimes the fish just ain't there. And something just ain't there, on sight alignment/etc on that 10X ring. Which, after all, is why we go back time and again.
re: "I don't understand the 12/12 and 1/14 comment, could you please explain more?"
aren't those dates of your targets? 12/16/12 and 1/19/14?
I often date my own targets to help try to figure out what might be going on.
I have noted, against my own reluctance to believe it, that my own accuracy capacity does change with certain powders even when I stay in my own 'green zone' of some steps down from whatever the max may be. I seem to do best with slugs moving downrange in the 750-1000 fps more or less, regardless of caliber, boolit, or barrel length, and with powders such as HP38/W231; TightGroup; Trail Boss; Universal Clays. .
Not to step away from your target, rather to make a point of some kind of unknown load variables remaining just that. There has to be 'other variables' not as easily measured. I shot an ICORE match last week end, using a favored revolver with long established loads that have been highly accurate over the last 4 years. Usually the steel targets only stages, take only "1" each to hit the target. On 2 separate stages...yes, perhaps longer as there were 18 each, I unaccountably missed several in the last group not once or twice, but enough to have to reload not once but twice (!) thereby requiring FOR UNKNOWN REASONS 18 shots into about 2 or 3 stationary targets....steel poppers about 12"wide 4' tall and under 30' away!!!
Not so demanding as the holes in paper witness, yet the digital timer certainly noted some kind of error. Of course standing 2/hand hold is more prone to it's own kind of miss errors, but that was ridiculous.
Since I prefer steel to paper targets, my wobble factor is less demanding than bulls eyes, yet there is no steel target too big or too close you can't miss it.
The demands of ballistic target science is much like fly fishing IMHO.
You can have the right rod, right weather, right fly, right casting technique, etc. I'm convinced that sometimes the fish just ain't there. And something just ain't there, on sight alignment/etc on that 10X ring. Which, after all, is why we go back time and again.
fredj338
Member
All of my ammo is "wasted" I have not been able to get any of it back.
If you fire 10 shots to get dat from that 5 would have gotten you, thn it is wated.
Oh no;
am I going to have to learn short hand ? !
am I going to have to learn short hand ? !
