Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Be careful what you shoot these loads out of. They will not exit some longer barrels. If it is the HBWC it's a different story. The DEWC needs a little more to get going, like Dale's load above.
Target loads for .38 special
- Thread starter retrogun
- Start date
Be careful what you shoot these loads out of. They will not exit some longer barrels. If it is the HBWC it's a different story. The DEWC needs a little more to get going, like Dale's load above.
Geeze, you're right there. My son in KY found the primers for me and had a friend who was visiting, bring them back north. The Speer HBWC's I found had 1/8" of dust on the box & were sitting in one horse town gun shop. Today I was tracking down some Hornady 158gr SWC's I was told about and stumbled over a hidden 1lb container of Bullseye. Got the bullets and powder so at least I've enough to get started.
Retrogun
R. Walter
Member
Whenever I get an itch in my trigger finger one of the best things I know to do is to break out a box of my target handloads in 38Special which are always 148 gr lead wadcutters loaded over 3.0 grains of Bullseye with a small pistol primer.
One can easily squeeze off several hundred rounds with no ill effects in a couple of hours to really scratch that itch.
One can easily squeeze off several hundred rounds with no ill effects in a couple of hours to really scratch that itch.
A 148 grain bullet will not shot anywere near point of aim in my fixed sight M10. The sights are regulated for 158 grain bullets.
I don't have any 148 LWC data with my M10-5. Velocities in a M66 with the 158 grain load were about the same as in the M10-5, so I consider the data representative.
Maybe the +P data might be worth comparing.
4" M66-2
148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers
17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F
Ave Vel =704 fps
Std Dev =18
ES = 57
High = 742
Low = 685
N = 6
Zero Factory 158gr LSWC-HP + P
16-Aug-92 T = 75°F
Ave Vel =877 fps
Std Dev =23
ES 77
High 923
Low 846
N = 6
158gr LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers,
Oct-93 T = 65-70°F
Ave Vel =764 fps
Std Dev =13
ES 40
High 776
Low 736
N = 6
I don't have any 148 LWC data with my M10-5. Velocities in a M66 with the 158 grain load were about the same as in the M10-5, so I consider the data representative.
Maybe the +P data might be worth comparing.
4" M66-2
148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers
17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F
Ave Vel =704 fps
Std Dev =18
ES = 57
High = 742
Low = 685
N = 6
Zero Factory 158gr LSWC-HP + P
16-Aug-92 T = 75°F
Ave Vel =877 fps
Std Dev =23
ES 77
High 923
Low 846
N = 6
158gr LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers,
Oct-93 T = 65-70°F
Ave Vel =764 fps
Std Dev =13
ES 40
High 776
Low 736
N = 6
Slamfire,
Thanks for all the data, I'm waiting for a powder scale and case trimmer to arrive in order to start reloading. I have several different formulas to try in two different revolvers with 3 different bullets and 3 different powders.....should be interesting.
Have you made any mods to your 10-5 to help accuracy? what barrel length?
Retrogun
Thanks for all the data, I'm waiting for a powder scale and case trimmer to arrive in order to start reloading. I have several different formulas to try in two different revolvers with 3 different bullets and 3 different powders.....should be interesting.
Have you made any mods to your 10-5 to help accuracy? what barrel length?
Retrogun
cmort666
Member
I don't know what I could shoot that out of that it wouldn't exit the barrel, a rifle maybe.
I've been shooting that load out of my 6" Model 14 for ten years without even a hint of a problem.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Well, that would certainly be one firearm to be concerned with!
What I was trying to say was this: "A DEWC, in most cases, needs a little more oomph to get going than a HBWC."
The logical end of that statement is this, if there isn't enough oomph, your bullet may get stuck in the barrel.
Just so you know, I know that you can get a DEWC stuck in the barrel of a M686 6" using loads listed here. Don't ask.
cmort666
Member
If you got a bullet stuck with 2.7gr. of Bullseye and a 148gr. DEWC, that would indicate to me a problem not with the charge weight, but with either the powder itself or the primer, or alternately, with whatever mechanism you're using to throw the powder.Originally posted by smith crazy:
Well, that would certainly be one firearm to be concerned with!What about a revolver that had large cylinder throats and a tight bore with an 8 3/8" barrel? How about bullets that are in the 20BHN range and are .358" and your barrel slugs at .357"?
What I was trying to say was this: "A DEWC, in most cases, needs a little more oomph to get going than a HBWC."
The logical end of that statement is this, if there isn't enough oomph, your bullet may get stuck in the barrel.
Just so you know, I know that you can get a DEWC stuck in the barrel of a M686 6" using loads listed here. Don't ask.
1. Just because the powder measure threw 2.7gr. one time, doesn't mean that it will the next. That's why every time I load, I first run three charges through the measure without even weighing them. I just dump each back into the hopper. I then start throwing for weight, until either the measure throws (within its tolerances) what it's supposed to be set at, or I make appropriate adjustments. I loaded 100 158gr. LSWCs with Unique last night. I probably ran ten test charges until I was confident that it was going to throw within 1/10gr.
2. If you get a stuck bullet with a particular charge that otherwise works fine, you don't know if it really was THAT charge that was thrown. It's not like you can go back in time and re-weigh it. Once that primer goes off, there's no way to know WHAT charge was in the case, unless it was a squib with NO powder and there's no evidence of ANY powder combustion, OR you blow out a case and there's evidence there was TOO much. But again, absent other evidence, you won't know HOW much or little there was.
In the past, I've caught errors on my part where I ended up weighing a bunch of loaded rounds to find ones with way too little powder. It's not perfect, but at least you can corral the obvious problem rounds to pull and identify a suspected error.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
OK, you win.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
DEWC
Two different animals.
Dale53
Member
Reloaders, in general, need to get out of the mindset, that if two bullets weigh the same, then you can load them the same. Not necessarily so. The most obvious example is the difference in pressure and velocity between a 160 gr SWC and a 160 wadcutter loaded flush with the case mouth. Most everyone recognizes that one.
However, the diffence between a Hollow base wadcutter SWAGED bullet and a solid base CAST wadcutter are also significant. It's not always recognized but it IS there and the difference is REAL as "Smith Crazy" suggests.
In much earlier days, I was loading Saeco 190 gr SWC in a .45 ACP. Then I got a very nice H&G four cavity mould that cast a 190 gr #130 SWC. Since they weighed the same, I used the same powder charge. I was fat, dumb, and happy until I cracked the slide on my .45. I chronographed that load and it was over 1100 fps!! (the Saeco ran 950-1000 fps. The lower load was safe and the faster load was NOT. It turned out my recoil spring had "sagged" from 16.0 lbs to 12.0 lbs. That combination of a "too hot" load and a "too light" spring was more than my 1911 could take. The #130 bullet took up more powder space than the #68 bullet did. It is as simple as that.
The chronograph is NOT a pressure gun but it can sure indicate areas to stay away from. It certainly educated me. I use a lot of the H&G #130's these days but I am careful to adjust my powder charge to give me what I should have instead of MORE (that I shouldn't have
.
Solid base wadcutters need a bit more powder because they are cast and are harder and the solid base does not expand quite like a soft, swaged hollow base wadcutter does.
On the other hand, the solid base can be driven faster, with safety, than a hollow base wadcutter (driven too fast, hollow base bullets have separated their skirts and left the skirt in the barrel to cause a bulged barrel on the next shot).
They are both FINE designs but MUST be used within their design limits for safety AND satisfaction.
Dale53
However, the diffence between a Hollow base wadcutter SWAGED bullet and a solid base CAST wadcutter are also significant. It's not always recognized but it IS there and the difference is REAL as "Smith Crazy" suggests.
In much earlier days, I was loading Saeco 190 gr SWC in a .45 ACP. Then I got a very nice H&G four cavity mould that cast a 190 gr #130 SWC. Since they weighed the same, I used the same powder charge. I was fat, dumb, and happy until I cracked the slide on my .45. I chronographed that load and it was over 1100 fps!! (the Saeco ran 950-1000 fps. The lower load was safe and the faster load was NOT. It turned out my recoil spring had "sagged" from 16.0 lbs to 12.0 lbs. That combination of a "too hot" load and a "too light" spring was more than my 1911 could take. The #130 bullet took up more powder space than the #68 bullet did. It is as simple as that.
The chronograph is NOT a pressure gun but it can sure indicate areas to stay away from. It certainly educated me. I use a lot of the H&G #130's these days but I am careful to adjust my powder charge to give me what I should have instead of MORE (that I shouldn't have
Solid base wadcutters need a bit more powder because they are cast and are harder and the solid base does not expand quite like a soft, swaged hollow base wadcutter does.
On the other hand, the solid base can be driven faster, with safety, than a hollow base wadcutter (driven too fast, hollow base bullets have separated their skirts and left the skirt in the barrel to cause a bulged barrel on the next shot).
They are both FINE designs but MUST be used within their design limits for safety AND satisfaction.
Dale53
Bullseye Smith
Member
I use 3grs. of TiteGroup with a 148 gr HBWC and it is great. Plus I use Federal Primers with this. When we shot PPC we used 2.2 grs. of Bullseye and you could see the HBWC fly to the target when the sun was right, and that is a lite load.
harry carey
Member
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if you are to load wadcutters you should read "a study of 38 target loads " W G Mitchell 1988 issue 117 "rifle" magazine.
Gutpile Charlie
US Veteran
I have not loaded any in years, but the loads I used were 148 gr. HBWC or double ended wad cutters over the "appropriate" amount of WW231 or Bullseye.
That all you need to know....it will work like a charm.
That all you need to know....it will work like a charm.
photoman
Member
The classic Elmer Keith 3.0 of Bullseye with a 148 works for me.
harry carey
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william dresser addressed this issue years ago. .55 grain of bullseye 1 27/32" barrel, m36, all bullets exited barrel, 148 dewc. 1.25 grain of BE in 6" barrel cleared all bullets from a 6" barrel. HOWEVER ... i have been an eyewitness to oversized plated bullet(WC) in a very dirty rental gun not clearing a 1 27/32" barrel.the sound of the gas coming out the rear of the gun was strange. even the first time shooter knew not to fire again. to remove that bullet we had to drill a hole with a drill press thru the bullet four times before we could drive it out.a cast bullet would have been easier to remove than that soft core plated bullet that kept collapsing when we tried to hammer it out.there are some strange looking rounds coming from the commercial reloaders occasionally .if everyone took a basic pistol course they might look at ammo prior to putting it in a gun.
