Targeting on the body question

[hdtwice]

Got a question that some of you, due to previous training and education might know, in regards to shot placement on the human body.

Now up front, I realize that bullets can do weird things when entering an object but generally speaking, how effective are shots placed at the lower abdomen height, think belly button center with two inches down or up? I realize that conventional thought is center mass more in the chest area, but how well does the lower trunk compare?

 

[blues7]

The first post in this thread links to an excellent presentation by Jacksonville, FL police officer Jared Reston who discusses in great detail his experience in gunfights, (including being shot and still winning the fight), and the effectiveness of pistol rounds...including shot placement.

The info provided is relevant to both LE and non-law enforcement alike.

 

[NYlakesider]

Got a question that some of you, due to previous training and education might know, in regards to shot placement on the human body.

Now up front, I realize that bullets can do weird things when entering an object but generally speaking, how effective are shots placed at the lower abdomen height, think belly button center with two inches down or up? I realize that conventional thought is center mass more in the chest area, but how well does the lower trunk compare?

Well Maasad Ayoob has said that a pelvic shot or a couple shots in that area is a very well know stopper. For one it stops a person from being on their feet, and causes tremendous pain. Enough that they will cease hostilities!

Remember the key word here is stopper but it can also be a killer.

 

[American1776]

A shot to the pelvis (a few inches below the navel) with a service caliber or better, can shatter the pelvis. That would instantaneously cause the person to fall to the ground and be unable to get back up.

I do like the idea of pelvis shots, especially if the offender is wielding a contact weapon like a knife or club, or is wearing body armor.

 

[lrrifleman]

I think that it will take a while to stop the fight in an assailant! In my opinion, those will not be disabling shots, just very painful shots. Think of it as a hunter going after game, the animal lives in the upper third to one half of the body. An abdominal hit is going to strike either the stomach, intestines, or urinary tract ... and the killer may be peritonitis in a few days. Aim higher, going for the heart and lungs.

Yes, you can go for the pelvic girdle, but caliber vs bone mass could be a challenge. I had my pelvis fractured in my accident ... the hit may make the varmint stationary, but it will NOT take the fight out of him!

 

[Fishinfool]

My opinion? No one on this thread has been in enough self defense shooting situations to be able to provide accurate statistical data from their experienced alone.

There have been cases of bad guys being shot in the leg with a .22, and dropping and immediately becoming dead, and there are perps who have taken numerous service caliber rounds to the chest, and still being able to kill, and then survive theirselves.

Compiled data over the years shows the only sure way to stop a perp dead in his tracks is to sever the spinal column, destroy the brain, or cause an immediate loss of blood pressure. Center mass to the chest is the gold standard for effectiveness and ease of placement. And even it is not 100%.

Severe pain probably will work for most, but not everyone, especially if they are cranked up on something like meth or angel dust.

Now, if the only target being presented is a belly or leg shot, then it is better than nothing, but given the choice, I personally would take center mass / chest every time if offered in a life or death situation, preferably with a double tap.

Larry

 

[Arik]

Got a question that some of you, due to previous training and education might know, in regards to shot placement on the human body.

Now up front, I realize that bullets can do weird things when entering an object but generally speaking, how effective are shots placed at the lower abdomen height, think belly button center with two inches down or up? I realize that conventional thought is center mass more in the chest area, but how well does the lower trunk compare?

Center mass is where most of the important organs are. This is actually why you have a rib cage....to protect those important organs from every day things that may do harm to them. Shoot someone in the pelvic area may stop them from walking but not necessarily shooting back. In sure kneecapping hurts too

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[TomkinsSP]

Inverted triangle, eye, eye, mouth...

 

[Rastoff]

There have been cases of bad guys being shot in the leg with a .22, and dropping and immediately becoming dead,...

Never heard of this before. Please post a link to the article or case.

The thoracic cavity is the primary target for two reasons; it's big and it has vital organs. The normal response to a threat to life or serious injury is two, controlled, shots the thoracic cavity. In the thoracic is the lungs, heart and spinal cord. Obviously, the spinal cord is the best target, but very small. For 99% of the bad guys, two in the lungs or heart is enough.

For those that don't stop with that, the cranial ocular cavity is next. This is a 3"x4" box in the head. It's defined by the top of the eyebrows to just under the nose and just inside each ear. In there is the brain stem. This shot will stop any human with one shot, but is a very small target. That's why this is a secondary target.

The pelvic bone is a very painful target. It would take me out of the fight, but I wouldn't have been in it in the first place. However, an opponent that isn't stopped by two in the thoracic, isn't going to be stopped by a broken pelvic bone either. If he has a knife, this might be a good target, but it's taking a chance if he has a gun.

I still think the thoracic is the best target first.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I agree with all those who say the thoracic cavity is the best target, and it's what I focus on when I practice.

But I think it's prudent to be able to hit alternate targets if necessary. While a head shot as described above is the best bet, the head is a smaller, more mobile target. A hit anywhere other than the "sniper's box" may end up being a glancing blow and not stop an attacker. Depending on the circumstances, a pelvic shot may be better.

 

[Whitwabit]

A pelvic shot might not be a killing shot unless a major blood vessel is hit .. but it will be disabling .. and will probably stop someone in their tracks .. they would not be able to Run and possibly stand ..

The Proof ~~ I have a permanently dislocated tail (dislocated coccyx) bone due to a accident at work .. and the pain is too high for me to run I can't walk at times when the pain threshold is elevated !! not even 5 feet .. it would take me to my knees .. As would a bullet wound to that general area to anyone being shot there ..

That is why my personal situation awareness is kept at such a high level when I am out .. I can't escape a serious attack on myself or wife in my condition ..

 

[dubtap21]

Inverted triangle, eye, eye, mouth...

In a perfect world.....

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[Muss Muggins]

Shoot directly at the middle of the biggest part of the threat that you can see. All you're trying to do is make the aggressor decide he/she now has something better to do at the moment . . .

Got a question that some of you, due to previous training and education might know, in regards to shot placement on the human body.

Now up front, I realize that bullets can do weird things when entering an object but generally speaking, how effective are shots placed at the lower abdomen height, think belly button center with two inches down or up? I realize that conventional thought is center mass more in the chest area, but how well does the lower trunk compare?

 

[Arik]

A pelvic shot might not be a killing shot unless a major blood vessel is hit .. but it will be disabling .. and will probably stop someone in their tracks .. they would not be able to Run and possibly stand ..

The Proof ~~ I have a permanently dislocated tail (dislocated coccyx) bone due to a accident at work .. and the pain is too high for me to run I can't walk at times when the pain threshold is elevated !! not even 5 feet .. it would take me to my knees .. As would a bullet wound to that general area to anyone being shot there ..

That is why my personal situation awareness is kept at such a high level when I am out .. I can't escape a serious attack on myself or wife in my condition ..

But does everyone react the same way to pain?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[ken158]

A guy that shoots 100 at the range will shoot a 70 in a gunfight... center mass should be the point of aim and be sure to double tap with a third shot to the head if possible.

 

[okiegtrider]

The first post in this thread links to an excellent presentation by Jacksonville, FL police officer Jared Reston who discusses in great detail his experience in gunfights, (including being shot and still winning the fight), and the effectiveness of pistol rounds...including shot placement.

The info provided is relevant to both LE and non-law enforcement alike.

Thank you blues7 for posting that. Incredibly poignant, detailed presentation in that video. It's two hours long. I watched it in one sitting. I found it that gripping. A no nonsense, graphic presentation of his experience gun fighting and the aftermath. Obviously aimed at a LE audience, but contains lessons in it for everyone.

Of course we all know that a gunfight is a dynamic fast changing situation, and much more than picking the best spot and shooting at it. Reston does such a good job of illustrating this and giving stark reminder of the reality of such an encounter.

Two articles that boil down the lessons in the video. Worth a read.

5 keys to winning gunfights (from a cop who's 'been there' repeatedly)

5 more keys to winning gunfights

 

[blues7]

Thank you blues7 for posting that. Incredibly poignant, detailed presentation in that video. It's two hours long. I watched it in one sitting. I found it that gripping. A no nonsense, graphic presentation of his experience gun fighting and the aftermath. Obviously aimed at a LE audience, but contains lessons in it for everyone.

My pleasure, friend. Glad you found it of value.

 

[Doug M.]

Check out Reston's material -he is well regarded as knowledgeable on the topic by people I respect. Also check out http://tacticalanatomy.com/to get a good understanding of the relevant human anatomy. There is also a very good discussion of the anatomical and terminal ballistics issues in personal defense in Urey W. Patrick and John C. Hall, “In Defense of Self and Others -- issues, facts & fallacies: The realities of law enforcement's use of deadly force”, (3rd edition, 2017), a book that everyone should own if they have any interest in use of force law and tactics.

In short: From the front, draw lines through the nipples (both vertical and horizontal), with a horizontal line essentially just barely below the shoulders. The resulting box will be slightly smaller than a grocery bag, and is the primary target area. Add in the neck/throat, and the triangle described above from the bottom of the nose to the outer edges of the eyes as a secondary target area (because it will be harder to hit). (From the side, essentially through the ear canal.) Practice those areas being your preferred target areas, and accept that sometimes you won't have adequate access to those and have land shots elsewhere - they won't be as effective, but the assailant will not feel or work better.

Handgun rounds suck, so plan on shooting several times. You shoot until you perceive the termination of the threat situation (which is also true with long gun rounds - there are no guarantees). The target area to which you refer may be fatal, but that is not the issue or even relevant. The goal is to stop the threat as fast as possible, and that target area is sub-optimal for that purpose.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Seems like a lot to process when you're getting shot at . . .

Check out Reston's material -he is well regarded as knowledgeable on the topic by people I respect. Also check out http://tacticalanatomy.com/to get a good understanding of the relevant human anatomy. There is also a very good discussion of the anatomical and terminal ballistics issues in personal defense in Urey W. Patrick and John C. Hall, “In Defense of Self and Others -- issues, facts & fallacies: The realities of law enforcement's use of deadly force”, (3rd edition, 2017), a book that everyone should own if they have any interest in use of force law and tactics.

In short: From the front, draw lines through the nipples (both vertical and horizontal), with a horizontal line essentially just barely below the shoulders. The resulting box will be slightly smaller than a grocery bag, and is the primary target area. Add in the neck/throat, and the triangle described above from the bottom of the nose to the outer edges of the eyes as a secondary target area (because it will be harder to hit). (From the side, essentially through the ear canal.) Practice those areas being your preferred target areas, and accept that sometimes you won't have adequate access to those and have land shots elsewhere - they won't be as effective, but the assailant will not feel or work better.

Handgun rounds suck, so plan on shooting several times. You shoot until you perceive the termination of the threat situation (which is also true with long gun rounds - there are no guarantees). The target area to which you refer may be fatal, but that is not the issue or even relevant. The goal is to stop the threat as fast as possible, and that target area is sub-optimal for that purpose.

 

[cracker57]

Center mass is not taught in every class as the best target for no good reason, however if you study/train past the basics one learns it is not always your best choice. One example would be at close range say in your house. If the target/bad guy is the same size as me and I am aiming center mass the bullet will be traveling level to the ground and possibly going thru walls into a bedroom occupied by my kid, aim at the pelvic and I am shooting at a downward angle so the bullet hopefully will not go thru that same wall. Another example would be in a crowded area, maybe by dropping to the floor and shooting at an upward angle at the head you would have less of a chance to hit an innocent. lots of decisions to be made in a fraction of a second.