Teachers and Concealed Weapons?

[Rastoff]

vigil617,
I hear you loud and clear and at first blush, it seems reasonable. However, I'm not sure you, and many of us, are seeing the whole picture.

Consider this...
Have you ever gone to the mall with your kid? A game? Restaurant? In these and many other public settings, there are people like you and me that have CC and we think nothing of it. Why are we suddenly more worried about our children while they are at school?

It is a natural reaction. We want our kids to be safe. Still, a person with a CC is the same in school as out. Why should a teacher need to be "vetted" and an electrician not?

Don't get me wrong, I understand your concern. However, I have that concern in general and it causes me a lot of mixed feelings. I think a person carrying a gun for protection should be trained and proficient with it. The 2nd amendment doesn't say that though and I'm glad it doesn't.

So, I'm conflicted. Even though I have strong feelings about training, I'm staunchly opposed to making it a requirement.

Further, I don't want to start down the path of segregating people by what they do. I'm going to take the hard path on this one. A teacher should be allowed to carry just like anyone else without stricter requirements. They should be encouraged to get training and to practice.

 

[pumpedTSI]

The BS thing about the "gun free" zones is that honest citizens that are CCW holders are technically criminals in the 10 minutes that they drop their kids off at school wearing their CCW rig (or driving past a school and a cop stops you for any traffic stop) but of course we all drive the 5 miles back home after the dropoff to get our rig and then drive to work......yeah right

 

[viceunit]

armed teacher

Step 1- Turn off lights and barricade the door.
Step 2- Get all my students together so they cannot be seen from any window
Step 3- Call 911 and quickly explain the situation
Step 4- Get ready to respond with lethal force if the assilant tries to enter the room

I'm not SWAT trained, and have no desire to go looking for trouble in the halls

That last sentence is an excellent point. You do not want to be mistaken by the responding officers as the active shooter when they arrive. I would hope and expect that in training, that scenario is explored. If the shooter is a middle-aged white male, for example, and the armed teacher is of a similar description, running down the hallway with a gun could be disastrous.

 

[silentflyer]

i have ask 7 teachers who I know personally, zero interest with any of them haveing a gun in the school building,but no problem with armed LEO's. Some commented they would give up teaching first if it comes to that.
Some would have no problem with a CC permit on their own, but not in school.

 

[kennyb]

I'd like to see a program that would allow teachers to take their concealed carry class free or at a discount. Perhaps that would encourage many to learn more about firearms and become responsible gun owners.

it's not going to accomplish a lot in the way of security at schools as most school districts are gun free...to include school employees

 

[jajo]

There's a big (legal) gap between condoning a teacher authorized to carry concealed to bring a weapon to the classroom and appointing teachers who will be armed.

I think there would be issues in either case. If teachers are allowed to bring weapons,...who coordinates the response to avoid friendly fire?

If certain teachers are required to be armed...what kind of training and certification would be provided. Who assumes liability?

Professional Security Officers, or police would be a much less risky proposition.




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[Diablo982]

Professional Security Officers, or police would be a much less risky proposition.

True, but much more expensive. I liken it to the Air Marshal program after 9/11. Scores of thousands of Federal Air Marshals were hired to protect the sky from hijackings. The expense was astronomical, and I don't believe there is a documented case of an Air Marshal stopping a hijacking. Shortly after the Air Marshal program ramped up, the Federal Flight Deck Officer program was created. Volunteer pilots agreed to go to extra training to carry in the cockpit and deal with a potential hijacking situation. The pilots spend 99.9 percent of the time doing what they do best, but also serve as a last line of defense for the aircraft. In the meantime, the Air Marshal program is a shell of itself circa 2002-2004 with huge cost savings to the taxpayers.

If school shootings/violence is a particular issue at a school, by all means hire a professional. For most schools I think a trained, armed teacher will be enough.

 

[sheriff54]

the post above covers what I think in better words than I could... I've seen the "talking heads" on the local and national news, teachers telling they do not want or need to be armed. Good statement but I want to point out is the teachers and administrators in Newtown who stood between the shooter and the kids. This was an act of courage that could have been backed up more "if" they were armed. armed guards in schools, theaters, malls (some of the recent arenas) with the cost, attentiveness, out sick, response time, found where they did not belong, are not "cost effective". Arm who is there... the courage of the folks who were in Newtown shows there is an option. In the military, police, and everyday life, there are cowards but there are also courageous individuals who strive to make a deference. we know the sheep, sheepdog and wolf story. if we carry it to the school, the 6 year olds are the sheep, the shooter is the wolf, the teacher is the shepherd. the shepherd protects the sheep. the teacher tried what she knew, standing in the gap. if she knew more??? maybe there would be a change in the outcome...

 

[RussC]

In the light of the recent upswing in violence in our school systems (Sandy Hook Conn.). What do you think about teachers carrying concealed weapons? Should additional training be required or should CCWs be outlawed for teachers altogether? I realize that this can be a controversial topic but, I am a teacher and I would feel more secure knowing that I could protect my students and myself should the need arise.

Utah for the last 12 years has allowed concealed carry in public schools.

I have not read or heard any news reports during the 12 years regarding a mishap regarding a teacher and a concealed weapon.

I do believe there are people in all professions including school teachers who should not carry a weapon.

The challenge is who or how do you decide who is fit to carry a weapon.

I embrace my right to bear arms and banning assault rifles and high capacity magazines will not address gun violence. However, I struggle with mental health and lack of background checks for private sales.

It makes no sense to me when I bought my Shield from Cabela's that I was subjected to a federal background check but the same gun could be purchased through a private sale with zero verification if the buyer could legally own the gun.

I am asking anyone who doesn't see a problem with no background checks for private sales to help me justify the practice.

I would also welcome ideas on how we keep mentally disturbed people from accessing guns.

Russ

 

[Barefootdog]

I, too, think that teachers who desire to CC should be allowed to do so, provided they can meet reasonably stringent requirements to do so......

I don't agree with this statement by itself. Why should teachers require more stringent requirements than any other citizen?

The fact that they will be carrying weapons around so many children, often in very crowded densities and will be expected to defend those children, not just themselves.

This is a completely different set of problems compared to an individual carrying for personal defense.

..and I am not trying to be insulting when I say this but my last ex wife was an elementary school teacher and that woman did not have the temperament to be carrying a weapon let alone carrying around large concentrations of children with the implied expectation of defending those children. Which leads to a second point....given the circumstances where they will be carrying and what will be expected of them some review of the individuals temperament should be imposed.

There is a difference between having a constitutional right to bear arms and exercising that right to bear arms in the defense of others.

IMHO

 

[Rastoff]

See, I don't think the expectations for the teacher should be different than any CCW holder. Their reason for carrying should be first to protect themselves. Consequently this will benefit the children in their classes.

Armed guards, who are paid specifically to protect others, are the ones I expect to protect the children.

 

[wrench]

I am a teacher, and have a permit to carry. If I was allowed, I would carry at school, just like I carry everywhere else that it is legal. At my school, there are lots of faculty and staff that are shooters, and quite a few of us with carry permits.
Obviously not all teachers want to carry, and lots that shouldn't carry, but for those of us who are willing and able, let us carry just like we do on the 'outside'.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

Fact four teachers needed a gun, just once in their lives.
Fact they were forbidden by law.
Fact they are dead and so are twenty children.
Geoff
Who notes the New York Laws passed almost overnight without comment by the slaves in New York State.

 

[vigil617]

vigil617,
Don't get me wrong, I understand your concern. However, I have that concern in general and it causes me a lot of mixed feelings. I think a person carrying a gun for protection should be trained and proficient with it. The 2nd amendment doesn't say that though and I'm glad it doesn't.

So, I'm conflicted. Even though I have strong feelings about training, I'm staunchly opposed to making it a requirement.

Further, I don't want to start down the path of segregating people by what they do. I'm going to take the hard path on this one. A teacher should be allowed to carry just like anyone else without stricter requirements. They should be encouraged to get training and to practice.

Good points, Rastoff; no doubt about it. Thanks. And from what I read in the post by RussC about Utah's experience for the past 12 years with allowing armed teachers in its classrooms, I am encouraged by the absence of any mishaps.

Perhaps there is a natural sort of culling process involved when a teacher (or any other professional, perhaps) takes the additional step of becoming a CCW holder, and intends to carry in the classroom. It's probably impossible to know how many Utah teachers carry, or what percent of teachers in that state do, which would be useful in evaluating the no-incidents statistic. But if what Utah has experienced is instructive to other states that will be considering armed teachers in the classroom, that in itself is a step in the right direction.

I'm not about segregating people by professions, either, and I do believe firmly in people being able to protect themselves (and others, if they choose to take on that additional responsibility and liability) in their workplaces. In the classroom situation, what it comes down to, for me, is this: We have a responsibility to our children to try to keep them safe at school. Is that responsibility better accomplished by having an armed teacher in the classroom in the highly-unlikely (thank God) event of an armed shooter entering the school, or by not having a loaded, cocked, and locked handgun in the room with students day in, day out, even though its carrier is entitled to protect himself/herself?

Coming down on the side of allowing that teacher to carry for personal protection, I still think of the students' safety, so I want that teacher to be as careful, responsible, and even-tempered person as reasonably can be expected. If, by getting their CCW permit, teachers are going to be shown statistically to be inclined that way, great. Utah's experience seems to support that, for what it adds to the discussion.

 

[RussC]

Talk to the teachers in Utah and Kansas, I believe the only two states that currently authorize teachers to carry at school. There is a training company in Utah that teaches CCW classes, and has offered their training to any Utah educator who wishes to attend for free. The response was so overwhelming they had to schedule additional classes.

Kind of funny, haven't heard about too many school shootings in Kansas or Utah, but that's lost on the media and DC. Just sayin.

Gunny

I volunteer from time-to-time at my daughters elementary school and as a Utah concealed permit holder I can and do legally conceal every time I enter the school and I am not obligated to inform anyone including the principal that I am concealing in the school. I believe the unknown is a great deter ant for crime. If the principal doesn't know the bad guy will also be wondering if the school has 1 or 20 good guys packing.

Smartest thing a Utah school teacher can do if they choose to conceal on their person at school is not to tell anyone else otherwise the element of concealment will be lost and bad guys will know who gets the first bullet.

Russ

 

[RussC]

I am a teacher, and have a permit to carry. If I was allowed, I would carry at school, just like I carry everywhere else that it is legal. At my school, there are lots of faculty and staff that are shooters, and quite a few of us with carry permits.
Obviously not all teachers want to carry, and lots that shouldn't carry, but for those of us who are willing and able, let us carry just like we do on the 'outside'.

If you can't pack lead pack a pepper gun.

Kimber makes a double barrel that will launch a gel pepper mix 90 mph and it is not effected by wind like pepper spray and has twice the range.

Amazon has them for less than $50.

If you want to go big you can purchase a pepper gun with a laser that launches pepper gel over 200 mph over the length of the average class room and the pepper tear gas mix has a higher concentration than bear spray.

Downside the high tech pepper gun with laser sights will set you back $300.

Maybe the school district could workout a group discount.

Had New town had pepper gel guns it might have slowed the shooter down. Pepper in the eyes must hurt.

Russ

 

[hunter3705]

Never gonna happen

I'm a public school teacher. In my state it is a felony to take a firearm onto public school property - unless of course you're an LEO. I can only speak for my own state, but here, it wouldn't matter how many students and staff members died, that is the very LAST solution they would ever even consider. It's like the airline pilots: they couldn't just let the pilots carry a gun, they had to become sworn federal flight deck officers, or some such bs. Sure, they'll let teachers carry guns. Just as soon as you've finished the police academy.

 

[Silversmok3]

I must be candid in agreeing with Hunter. In most states schools are non permissive environments enforced on pain of serious prison time. Areas with that cultural outlook would rather let 1,000 Sandy Hooks happen before acknowledging a personal right to armed self defense.

We then face the problem of encouraging teachers to responsibly arm up. It's a whole different can of worms defending against a spree shooter in a classroom versus aiming a 12 gauge at the bedroom door at 3AM.You need to be absolutely confident in your skills under stress, and that kind of training costs money. There's no way around it.

For us, spending $100 on ammo means we had a great range visit. For the typical teacher spending $50 a month on regular practice represents an onerous burden, akin to being ordered by my boss to spend $20 of my gas money to attend a sales meeting in the city. Most school districts flatly cannot afford to provide the necessary training .

So, we end up circulating right back to the outcome which already is the current state of affairs: out of thousands of teachers, only ten will bother to take the issue seriously enough to carry. The same teachers who don't care today won't be made to no matter what the law says, and the ones who do carry out of a responsibility to defend themselves and their students will do so no matter what the law says.

 

[gunny4053]

Gunny

I volunteer from time-to-time at my daughters elementary school and as a Utah concealed permit holder I can and do legally conceal every time I enter the school and I am not obligated to inform anyone including the principal that I am concealing in the school. I believe the unknown is a great deter ant for crime. If the principal doesn't know the bad guy will also be wondering if the school has 1 or 20 good guys packing.

Smartest thing a Utah school teacher can do if they choose to conceal on their person at school is not to tell anyone else otherwise the element of concealment will be lost and bad guys will know who gets the first bullet.

Russ

Russ, I couldn't agree more. That's the beauty of concealed carry, not knowing who will end your plans for this weekends barbeque, makes doing something stupid a little harder to plan. How's that saying go, "an armed society is a polite society"? If I thought a second grade teacher might put 2 center of mass and 1 to the melon, I'd have to rethink my career choices, and maybe consider saying please and thank you a little more.

Good Job Utah, and you too Russ

 

[flagman1776]

I support teachers carrying concealed weapons with proper training... along with reinforced classroom doors & locks. The Sandy Hook staff member, shot through a door she was holding closed, survived... unfortunately wounded... but a better outcome than holding up your hand or letting a murderer put a gun to your head.

 

[shawn mccarver]

In the light of the recent upswing in violence in our school systems (Sandy Hook Conn.). What do you think about teachers carrying concealed weapons? Should additional training be required or should CCWs be outlawed for teachers altogether? I realize that this can be a controversial topic but, I am a teacher and I would feel more secure knowing that I could protect my students and myself should the need arise.

I have no more concern about teachers carrying at work than I do anyone else carrying at work. Naturally, not all teachers are interested, and that is ok. There are plenty of people who prefer to leave their safety to others. If that is their choice, ok for them, but that choice should not be given more weight than the choice of another who prefers to try to even the odds or have a fair chance of fighting back.

I do not buy the argument that more guns at school is undesirable as is oft repeated by school officials, the media and gun haters. It betrays common sense to say so, unless you are prepared to say that police officers at school should also not have guns, and no one says that.

Thus, what is meant by those who say the answer is not "more guns at school" is that more guns in the hands of anyone but the police is not the answer. That attitude ignores less documented incidents where an armed citizen has been able to stop violent attacks.