Texas DPS switching to M&P 9

[Rusty53]

Chuck Norris won't be issued one I heard. Heck, he doesn't even flush a toilet. He scares the **** out of it. (Sorry, bad joke, couldn't help myself.)

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Ahhaa...i got a good laugh out of it....

 

[rockinar]

Walker mostly carried a Taurus knockoff and does it matter what a fictional character thinks of the M&P?

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The guy was joking....calm down.

 

[rockinar]

In my opinion, they should carry MP5s or some of sub gun as primary weapon. Handguns being secondary backup or if needed in a hurry. Their job is too dangerous to rely on handguns as a primary which are rather ineffective compared to what options they could have.

These guys are not patrolling rich gated neighborhoods in the suburbs. You're average person does not know, does not care or whatever the case, but Texas has a EXTREMELY MASSIVE amount of narco trafficking going on. Every bit of drugs and money from the Gulf Cartel and the Los Zetas comes in and up through Texas. A lone TX Trooper on the highways with a handgun of any kind is a defenseless sitting duck against these guys.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Folks, the .357 SIG is nothing more than cleverly named 9mm* +P+ designed originally to make gun-unwise police administrators believe they were getting .357 Magnum in an auto pistol. At its best, the .357 SIG was about the same as the 125 grain .357 Magnum in a snub nose, such as the 2 1/2 inch Model 19.

The .357 SIG is not significantly different in performance than Winchester's 127 grain +P+ 9mm, but at way higher pressure, way higher cost, and way higher abuse on the weapons.

SIG's own entry in that caliber could not pass the Homeland Security trials and you will note that the only maker that passed those trials with the .357 SIG caliber was Heckler and Koch.

I have always been a big fan of the .45 ACP. As I am old, I have to guard against becoming "set in my ways." My opinions on the .357 SIG are the result of actual use. My study into the matter has also convinced me that the current crop of high performance 9mm loads, unlike those of years past, are not significantly inferior in performance from bigger calibers. When the only loads for 9mm were ball or hollow points that would not expand, it made sense to go to a bigger caliber. That is no longer the case, as projectile technology has come a long way. You get expansion and penetration and good performance on auto glass and all of the other barriers used in the FBI tests.

The Winchester RA9B and RA9T, which are one generation newer than the FBI contract 9mm ammo (Q4364) truly are good performers and well placed sources at Winchester indicate to me that the Bureau will switch to the 9mm, but that they will likely stay with the 147 grain weight as they remain convinced that deep penetration is the key to good stopping power. And with the 147 grain RA9B and RA9T, it looks like they are right. The other advantage is that neither RA9B nor RA9T are +P, they exhibit mild recoil and allow quick follow-up shots and are easy on the pistols. They also allow higher magazine capacity in a smaller space to fit smaller hands.

Adoption of the 9mm across the board by the FBI will also eliminate the annoying problem they have had out at Quantico with 9mm being dropped into a .40 caliber barrel and chambering a .40 behind it. A bang under these circumstances naturally results in a really exciting day at the range, as may be imagined.

The FBI faces the same difficulties that many other large agencies face in the recruitment and training of persons for the job. Unlike the gunfighters J. Edgar Hoover hired in the gangster era, they look for law, accounting and other technical areas of expertise, and a huge number of recruits have little, if any, prior knowledge or shooting experience. They are often not "gun people" in the same sense as many on this forum, and have little interest in firearms apart from learning to shoot what they are given in order to qualify.

The current 9mm ammo makes the 9mm pistol a viable choice again from a training standpoint, a financial standpoint and from other standpoints.


*For anyone who came in late, the diameter of the ".357" SIG is actually .355 (9mm), so it really should have been called the .355 SIG, but that would not have tricked anyone.

 

[M29since14]

Recoil of the .357 SIG is inconsiderable, IMO. It's an easy gun to shoot accurately because follow through is less critical than with just about anything else, I suppose.

I can see the logic that people who are not "gun people" are going to have problems with a conventional DA/SA trigger, so if TX DPS wanted to solve that and stay with .357 SIG, there were many ways to do it. Seems pretty apparent they wanted to save some money and the truth is, with modern 9x19 ammo they probably gave up very little in effectiveness in the process.

The gun is another matter. In a budget-conscious, one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter environment, maybe an M&P9 is about what you could expect. As long as they are not trying to equip/train marksmen, they will probably get along OK. I'd sure rather have a SIG.

 

[S&W Rover]

The M&P9 platform -- with the rolling changes over the past several years (the larger sear return spring, the improved trigger bar, the sear with the better shape, and the improved twist rate on the barrel) -- has moved from being a pretty good gun to a very accurate, reliable, and long-wearing pistol. It has a simple manual of arms, is easy to take down, and can be had with or without a safety. A large percentage of those who shoot it like its ergonomics, which can be tailored to the user. I find it the most comfortable gun to grip and shoot of any I have shot (and I have shot a lot of different guns). It is a very good value for the money, being commercially available (with night sights) for individual sales for $400. And the company stands behind them.

Is it "better" than a Glock, or a Sig? I don't think we have an objective measure for that decision that we would all agree on - and there is always room for personal preferences -- but the M&P9 is a pretty good pistol.

 

[Edmo]

... When the only loads for 9mm were ball or hollow points that would not expand, it made sense to go to a bigger caliber. That is no longer the case, as projectile technology has come a long way. You get expansion and penetration and good performance on auto glass and all of the other barriers used in the FBI tests...

Shawn, good points about the advance in bullet technology...

I too grew up on the 45 ACP and thought the 9mm was a "cute" round for those who couldn't handle a "man's round". In fact I initially was going to make a sarcastic remark about the change in caliber and then looked at my carry gun for today... A Shield 9mm!!

Times change and some things like bullet design and terminal performance get better and better. I hope the change works for the Texas LEOs.

I think I'll go drag out my Colt 1911 and remember the good old days of big bullets moving slowly...

Edmo

 

[Jdugan4859]

In my opinion, they should carry MP5s or some of sub gun as primary weapon. Handguns being secondary backup or if needed in a hurry. Their job is too dangerous to rely on handguns as a primary which are rather ineffective compared to what options they could have.

That would make for an intresting traffic stop, lol. Not all of Texas is rural. My 15 mile stretch of the GWB across north Dallas has about 5 Troopers that work it, and they can converge in a hurry.

 

[Boge]

I have no problem with a 9mm, BUT why oh why do we have to relive the fiasco that was the 147 gr. bullet in the late 80's to mid 90's? Anyone with half a brain (which excludes the FBI) knows that the 1,300 + fps 115 gr. JHP's like the legendary Fed. BPLE & Win. +p+ version were fight enders as proven by the IL State Police, Border Patrol, etc. I know many say "well, the new generation of 147 gr. JHP's are different" but never present any real Street data to back it up. Where's the beef? If velocity is not a factor then why does the .357 Mag. 125 gr. & .357 SIG 125 gr. have such stellar Street records? Penetration is certainly a factor for sure, but not the only thing or else we'd be using ball ammo. I'd feel better for them if they compromised and used the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +p. I don't think it's a good idea to handicap the 9mm by turning it into basically a lumbering .38 Special with 147 gr. bullets. Just my haggard old opinion.

 

[fallhunter]

Not that it makes a difference for the government, but maybe availability has something to do with it.

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[catcus-jack]

Smith and Wesson like Glock is pretty much giving police departments M&Ps.While I like the M&P and have several it is far from being as good as a Sig.

 

[fallhunter]

Smith and Wesson like Glock is pretty much giving police departments M&Ps.While I like the M&P and have several it is far from being as good as a Sig.

And of officers want more they can buy them real inexpensive. With proof of occupation, Glocks M&P's are $425 and the M&P Shield is $385.

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[bobkatwells]

I too grew up on the 45 ACP and thought the 9mm was a "cute" round for those who couldn't handle a "man's round". In fact I initially was going to make a sarcastic remark about the change in caliber and then looked at my carry gun for today... A Shield 9mm!!

Times change and some things like bullet design and terminal performance get better and better. I hope the change works for the Texas LEOs.

Edmo

I agree with this completely. I remember thinking the same thing when the Army switched to the 9mm mainly due to NATO standardization from what I remember. But I easily qualified with the M9 and have been a 9mm fan for a long time.

I've found my M&P 9 to be a very functional, reliable and ACCURATE pistol.

 

[walkin' trails]

I seem to recall that the Federal 9BPLE 115 +p+ was supposed to be around 1300 fps, and the Winchester version was slightly slower, and the Hydra Shok 124 +p+ was around 1250. In the early 90s all worked better in the real world than the Hydra Shok 147 that the FBI hung their hat on. I seem to recall Winchester offering the Black Talon in 147 also, but don't know what kind of data it generated. The Winchester Rangers are descendents of that design. The light, fast +p+ rounds worked good on the street, but didn't penetrate deep enough to meet the FBI standard of 12 inches minimum. Ultimately, it's shot placement that counts, and the incidents I remember involved guys who werecompetent with their firearms.

 

[jonh1373]

From what I have read the FBI is looking at the 124gr+P. I spent 39 years as a LEO and have seen enough laboratory tests and real life results to conclude and agree with others that say : Caliber and velocity help, but it is shot placement that separates the winners and losers. Take all of your debate time and spend it on the range. Practice, practice, practice. Any fight you can avoid is a fight that you won.

 

[jtcarm]

I have no problem with a 9mm, BUT why oh why do we have to relive the fiasco that was the 147 gr. bullet in the late 80's to mid 90's?

Yep I remember that from the. 90s. What I read was the 147-grain load was designed by military spec-ops to be subsonic for better suppression, and given the HP to solve accuracy problems. It was then assumed since spec- ops were using it, it must be the magic formula.

 

[moxie]

Agree with Shawn that modern 9mm bullets make all the difference. I like the 124+P. Those bullet improvements also apply to the .45acp, making it even more effective than ever. But the 9mm is much closer in performance than ever before.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I have no problem with a 9mm, BUT why oh why do we have to relive the fiasco that was the 147 gr. bullet in the late 80's to mid 90's? Anyone with half a brain (which excludes the FBI) knows that the 1,300 + fps 115 gr. JHP's like the legendary Fed. BPLE & Win. +p+ version were fight enders as proven by the IL State Police, Border Patrol, etc. I know many say "well, the new generation of 147 gr. JHP's are different" but never present any real Street data to back it up. Where's the beef? If velocity is not a factor then why does the .357 Mag. 125 gr. & .357 SIG 125 gr. have such stellar Street records? Penetration is certainly a factor for sure, but not the only thing or else we'd be using ball ammo. I'd feel better for them if they compromised and used the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +p. I don't think it's a good idea to handicap the 9mm by turning it into basically a lumbering .38 Special with 147 gr. bullets. Just my haggard old opinion.

If you look far and wide, you will probably not find anyone who disliked the pathetic 147 grain JHPs more than I did. Times have, however, changed.

The FBI's Winchester Q4364 and the slightly newer technology Winchester RA9B of Chicago and St. Louis, and the LAPD/LASD RA9T are just completely different than the 147 grain hollow point bullets of old. They give the required penetration to get deep to the vital organs, yet they expand reliably, even after the FBI's barrier tests.

I think the current 147 gr JHPs do not turn the 9mm into a 38 Special. I think, based upon street results in the aforementioned jurisdictions, that they turn the 9mm into a .40 or even a low end .45.

The beauty of this is that while 9mm has seriously come up in the stopping power world, that does not mean that current .40 and .45 have gone down.

Since most of us are home defenders, private citizens and the like, we are not obligated to carry what the FBI issues, or what St. Louis, Chicago, LAPD or LASD, or anyone else issues.

Thus, we have free choice to carry what gives us confidence. For me, I now (and for the first time in 40+ years) have confidence in the 9mm with the 147 grain RA9B and its non-bonded equivalent, RA9T, to "bet my life" on it. Given my long love affair with the 1911 and its 230 grain .45 ACP cartridge, that is saying something, as I was a big skeptic of the 9mm, but no more.

By the way, if you cannot get RA9B, the 9mm PDX-1 in 147 grain is the same thing, but packaged in 20 round boxes and priced higher.

As to the FBI contract, they just made an award for indefinite quantity, fixed price, indefinite delivery (read: "as much as they want") with a piggyback provision for about a dozen or more other federal agencies, for 9mm ammo. They are far along in phasing out the MP5 and its variants, so other than 9mm pistols, they don't have use for that kind of a huge 9mm ammo contract without something looming on the horizon. By the way, the RFP said the ammo had to work with the Glock 17, 19 and 26 and the SIG Sauer 226 and 228.

I think the fact that the 9mm now meets the post-Miami handgun ammo testing protocol, it is no longer an "interim" as it was back then, until they adopted something better (the 10mm). This time around, I think it is to be the primary issue. The FBI apparently believes the current ammo performance, together with higher qualification scores, less pistol breakage, faster repeat shots, easier training of new agent-trainees, higher magazine capacity, now makes the 9mm a viable option for primary pistol issue, unlike in 1986, when it just a stop-gap measure between Miami and the 10mm.

It is noted as well, that the Bureau Glocks have a bad habit of bending or breaking trigger pins and breaking locking blocks with the .40 caliber, and the 9mm in 147 grain, which is not a +P round, by the way, does not cause the same problems in the 9mm Glock pistols.

The 9mm is also lower cost. All of those factors taken together, along with the fact that larger cities have already switched back to 9mm, along with some other large agencies, and the fact that an awfully lot of smaller agencies do what the FBI does, I think we are going to see a big resurgence in the 9mm.

Some are predicting the .40 will eventually drop off in popularity. I think it already has. I can easily see that all of the distributors with which I deal have much more .40 ammo available than they do 9mm.

Will the .40 go the way of the 38 Super and the strange little .357 SIG? I don't know, but I would bet we are about to see a big comeback of the 9mm.

 

[snowman.45]

Like Shawn, I grew up a proponent of the .45 ACP. When .40S&W came along, I thought of it as an answer to a question no one asked. Further, 9mm was just too "weak" for my liking. In 1993, my department went to the 9mm. We were all disappointed, but happy, at least, to have semi-autos. The original issue ammo was Black Talon 147 gr. Later, we went to the Ranger 127+p+, until we had a shooting in which the jacket separated from the bullet and gave us secondary projectiles. We then went to the Gold Dot 124+p. All shootings since, with the exception of one in which a peripheral hit stopped the suspect, have been terminal.

A couple of weeks ago, my Chief asked if we were due to replace some of our older duty Glocks; 17, 19, 26. He further asked, if we made a wholesale update, did we need to re-evaluate our use of the 9mm in favor of the .40 S&W. We told the Chief that, as much as we were all proponents of larger calibers in the past, we could not justify any such change with the history we have had.

I still often carry a .45 off-duty; M&P 45C, Colt 1991A1, S&W 4566, or even the occasional .40S&W: M&P 40 FS and C. However, most often I find myself carrying my 9mm Shield, or Glock 19. I have no doubt of the capability of 9mm to do its job, if I do mine.

 

[MP1SG]

my 2 cents
Ammo capacity trumps bigger bullets all day long (again my opinion)
the only time you have to much ammo, Is when you are swimming

1SG
Out

 

[jeffhughes]

I have a friend who is a top level DEA operator. He(and the agency) like the 9mm Federal HST 147g, they feel more rounds is better in a gunfight, and are confident in their chosen round...

 

[SuperMan]

Just can't see how the numbers add up....

.38 Special 158 +P LHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.

9mm 147 Subsonic JHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.

At one time I think it was Federal made a 147 grain .38 Special JHP that ran 950 fps so as to be identical to the 9mm Subsonic.

I worked for Dallas PD for 11 years. During that time the issue firearm was a Model 64 with 158 grain +P LHP ammo. The manufacturer varied from contract to contract but all the ammo ran between 900-950 fps. Officers however could carry any Colt, Browning or S&W revolver or semi-auto from 9mm to .45 Colt. .380 was allowed for Investigators and off-duty. Ammo was ones own choosing as long as it didn't explode or incendiary.

During that time (1977-1988) Dallas officers (2500 for a city of a million) were involved in 80+- gun fights a year. I spoke to as many officers as I could or read the reports. Of the dozen or so I spoke with who had used the city issue gun/load all but ONE changed to a larger caliber gun. Not ONE officer I spoke with who had used anything else changed guns or ammo.

My 9mms are loaded with either CorBon 115s at 1300+ or CorBon PowR'Ball at 1400+. My .38 Super Commander is loaded with PowR'Ball at 1500+ or 9x23 Winchester 124s at 1450...

One of my partners on Rochester, NH PD shot a guy at 6' just under the eye socket with a 9mm subsonic...bounced off the cheekbone and was found in his neck. Fortunately the Sargent standing next to him put two rounds in the guy and three rounds in one second was more than the guy could take...

9mm x 147 x 950 = a 17 round .38....which ain't so Special.

Bob

 

[M29since14]

9mm x 147 x 950 = a 17 round .38....which ain't so Special.

Probably better than a 6-round .38 - especially if you plan to miss a lot. The "how many rounds?" thing is always going to be a topic for debate. Indiana State Police just adopted the SIG 227 (11 rounds). Just how much of an improvement this represents over a 220 (9 rounds) is a mystery to me but, considering the expense of new guns and everything that goes along with them, for some it must be a very hot topic.

 

[bluefoodog]

Does anyone know which model number M&P TXDPS has selected? Their own training guys have been quoted by the Austin Papers as saying Its a 17 round model. That narrows it down a bit.

 

[Philadelphia Patriot]

I carry 124 grain +p HSTs in my polymer 9mm guns, 115 grain +p+ Gold Dots in my steel frame 9mm (a P01 clone, more specifically, a Canik Stingray), 90 grain Gold Dots in my LCP, and 200 grain +p Federal EFMJs (not that guard dog ****) during the winter in my 1911 commander, and 230 grain Gold Dots in my 1911 commander during warmer months (non-heavy jacket months).

 

[Biscut]

That is sad to hear as the .357 SIG is probably the best round ever offered to LE.

I was at the SIG Academy ammunition seminar when the .357 SIG was introduced. There were LEOs from all over the nation there including the Texas DPS as they were one of the first agencies to adopt the round.

Bank Miller was the head of the academy at the time. About a year later I spoke with him and asked how the round was peforming for DPS. He stated that the reports he had gotten back that in the first eight shootings with 125 Gold Dot HPs all were one shot stops including one through the door of an 18 wheeler cab. 6 or 7 died at the scene and the others died in the hospital....just doesn't get any better than that.

From a 4" pistol barrel the velocity of a 125 grain bullet starts at 1350 fps and works up from there depending on the round/gun combination. If I was back in LE wouldn't really care what bullet launcher they gave me...just make it a .357 SIG.

...and no I don't carry or even own a gun in .357 SIG as I carry a 1911 in .38 Super or 9x23 that gives the same performance as the SIG and is easier to reload....

As to the gun being lighter...DPS officers ride around in cars and carried a S&W Highway Patrolman...and two more rounds...wow... To give up power for two rounds and a few onces is foolish...

Bob

IMHO and it clearly that as I'm here in New Yorkistan! Chances are it's all about the cost. S&W (wisely so; and as Glock has done) almost gives LE departments their guns to grab that civilian market share. Works. So Tehas DPS gets low/no cost guns and saves a FORTUNE on ammo costs. Ammo cost for a small dept is up there now (as it is for everyone) SP agencies are carrying a very high cost for ammo each year.

 

[Snakeshift]

I know this thread has almost run its course. But to clarify: I'm 99% this is just for Troopers, not the Rangers. I have never seen a Texas Ranger carrying a Sig in the 26 years I've been alive. They almost always carry 1911's (though I have seen a few still packing revolvers!), so I HIGHLY doubt any Rangers will be packing M&P's anytime soon. But I'm assuming all the Troopers will transition soon.

 

[Sgt.Peck]

Just can't see how the numbers add up....

.38 Special 158 +P LHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.

9mm 147 Subsonic JHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.

At one time I think it was Federal made a 147 grain .38 Special JHP that ran 950 fps so as to be identical to the 9mm Subsonic.

I worked for Dallas PD for 11 years. During that time the issue firearm was a Model 64 with 158 grain +P LHP ammo. The manufacturer varied from contract to contract but all the ammo ran between 900-950 fps. Officers however could carry any Colt, Browning or S&W revolver or semi-auto from 9mm to .45 Colt. .380 was allowed for Investigators and off-duty. Ammo was ones own choosing as long as it didn't explode or incendiary.

During that time (1977-1988) Dallas officers (2500 for a city of a million) were involved in 80+- gun fights a year. I spoke to as many officers as I could or read the reports. Of the dozen or so I spoke with who had used the city issue gun/load all but ONE changed to a larger caliber gun. Not ONE officer I spoke with who had used anything else changed guns or ammo.

My 9mms are loaded with either CorBon 115s at 1300+ or CorBon PowR'Ball at 1400+. My .38 Super Commander is loaded with PowR'Ball at 1500+ or 9x23 Winchester 124s at 1450...

One of my partners on Rochester, NH PD shot a guy at 6' just under the eye socket with a 9mm subsonic...bounced off the cheekbone and was found in his neck. Fortunately the Sargent standing next to him put two rounds in the guy and three rounds in one second was more than the guy could take...

9mm x 147 x 950 = a 17 round .38....which ain't so Special.

Bob

My dept. issued 9mm sub-sonic for a while, till it became apparent that is was ineffective in the field out of a handgun. Rounds were glancing off of bone. It was designed to begin with to be shot out of suppressed sub machine guns. Very glad when they got rid of it.

 

[M29since14]

...I have never seen a Texas Ranger carrying a Sig in the 26 years I've been alive. They almost always carry 1911's...

Maybe they keep the issued SIGs in the trunks of their cars or behind the seats of their trucks, where no one will see them.

 

[snowman.45]

Over the years, I've had professional contact with several Rangers. They carry pretty much what they want. As was mentioned above, I saw 1911's the most. I doubt Rangers hide anything behind their seats or in their trunks. Great agency with a great history.