Texas DPS switching to M&P 9

[Llando88]

Could I ask someone who knows, how many pistols are we talking about? I am not sure how big the Texas DPS is.

Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

[Jdugan4859]

DPS includes Texas State Troopers, and the Rangers. About 2,300 officers combined.

 

[Buttercup]

I just hope that they sell off the police trade ins so I can snag one!

 

[fallhunter]

Good move. In all honesty, I think the M&P is second place to Glock in what a service firearm should be. (Considering what's available on today's market) personally, I am a Smith&Wesson fanboy, my duty and back up.. And even off duty is an M&P. I get to choose my firearm, and if I was doing it now all over again, after shooting the Gen4 Glock, that's what would be my primary. And why the 9mm? Why not .40? Recoil issues?

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[fallhunter]

The eyes of the Ranger are upon you!

Chuck Norris won't be issued one I heard. Heck, he doesn't even flush a toilet. He scares the **** out of it. (Sorry, bad joke, couldn't help myself.)

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[Boge]

The BP switched to the soft shooting 180 gr. .40 S&W for several reasons, one being that new recruits, due to Affirmative Action and many not being familiar with firearms to any great degree, could not shoot the hot 155 gr. loads well. So, the politically correct Gov't lowered the bar. This is surely a factor as well in this new decision, although no one will say so on record.

 

[Lonestar57]

My opinion for the switch. One, cost; 9mm is cheaper than 357sig ammunition, period. Sometimes it comes right down to money. But I also surmise that another reason for the switch to the M&P is the Sig pistols DA/SA trigger (first shot second shot aspect). These days we're seeing a lot of folks getting into law enforcement with very little firearms experience. I'm sure the DPS's firearms instructors have seen like I have seen that a large number of police recruits struggle with the DA/SA trigger. Some never get used to it. My range experiences when teaching police officers with this type of handgun is that a large proportion miss the first shot or they miss with the second shot. And worse, I've seen both shots missed frequently. In my book folks your first couple of shots are the most important in a gun fight. I have also had trouble with recruits using the Sig pistols failing to de-cock the weapon before re-holstering; very dangerous as you can imagine. Saw one of these just last week during annual qualifications with an "experienced officer". Had to do some personal counseling on range....

 

[jtcarm]

I'm a wheelgun guy and a gross ignoramous when it comes to modern (post-1980) autos and the newer rounds they chamber. But isn't the 9mm a big step backwards?

If training to shoot DA/SA is an issue, as Lonestar says, isn't there a striker-fire chambered in .357 sig?

 

[fallhunter]

My opinion for the switch. One, cost; 9mm is cheaper than 357sig ammunition, period. Sometimes it comes right down to money. But I also surmise that another reason for the switch to the M&P is the Sig pistols DA/SA trigger (first shot second shot aspect). These days we're seeing a lot of folks getting into law enforcement with very little firearms experience. I'm sure the DPS's firearms instructors have seen like I have seen that a large number of police recruits struggle with the DA/SA trigger. Some never get used to it. My range experiences when teaching police officers with this type of handgun is that a large proportion miss the first shot or they miss with the second shot. And worse, I've seen both shots missed frequently. In my book folks your first couple of shots are the most important in a gun fight. I have also had trouble with recruits using the Sig pistols failing to de-cock the weapon before re-holstering; very dangerous as you can imagine. Saw one of these just last week during annual qualifications with an "experienced officer". Had to do some personal counseling on range....

In the academy we qualified with Glock 17's. Then I felt an M&P grip. I loved it and shot better right away. That said, almost every one of us shot high left with the supplied Glocks. Qualifying was a LONG process.

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[fallhunter]

I'm a wheelgun guy and a gross ignoramous when it comes to modern (post-1980) autos and the newer rounds they chamber. But isn't the 9mm a big step backwards?

If training to shoot DA/SA is an issue, as Lonestar says, isn't there a striker-fire chambered in .357 sig?

Yeah. The M&P and Glock.

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[Rusty53]

Chuck Norris won't be issued one I heard. Heck, he doesn't even flush a toilet. He scares the **** out of it. (Sorry, bad joke, couldn't help myself.)

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Ahhaa...i got a good laugh out of it....

 

[rockinar]

Walker mostly carried a Taurus knockoff and does it matter what a fictional character thinks of the M&P?

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The guy was joking....calm down.

 

[rockinar]

In my opinion, they should carry MP5s or some of sub gun as primary weapon. Handguns being secondary backup or if needed in a hurry. Their job is too dangerous to rely on handguns as a primary which are rather ineffective compared to what options they could have.

These guys are not patrolling rich gated neighborhoods in the suburbs. You're average person does not know, does not care or whatever the case, but Texas has a EXTREMELY MASSIVE amount of narco trafficking going on. Every bit of drugs and money from the Gulf Cartel and the Los Zetas comes in and up through Texas. A lone TX Trooper on the highways with a handgun of any kind is a defenseless sitting duck against these guys.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Folks, the .357 SIG is nothing more than cleverly named 9mm* +P+ designed originally to make gun-unwise police administrators believe they were getting .357 Magnum in an auto pistol. At its best, the .357 SIG was about the same as the 125 grain .357 Magnum in a snub nose, such as the 2 1/2 inch Model 19.

The .357 SIG is not significantly different in performance than Winchester's 127 grain +P+ 9mm, but at way higher pressure, way higher cost, and way higher abuse on the weapons.

SIG's own entry in that caliber could not pass the Homeland Security trials and you will note that the only maker that passed those trials with the .357 SIG caliber was Heckler and Koch.

I have always been a big fan of the .45 ACP. As I am old, I have to guard against becoming "set in my ways." My opinions on the .357 SIG are the result of actual use. My study into the matter has also convinced me that the current crop of high performance 9mm loads, unlike those of years past, are not significantly inferior in performance from bigger calibers. When the only loads for 9mm were ball or hollow points that would not expand, it made sense to go to a bigger caliber. That is no longer the case, as projectile technology has come a long way. You get expansion and penetration and good performance on auto glass and all of the other barriers used in the FBI tests.

The Winchester RA9B and RA9T, which are one generation newer than the FBI contract 9mm ammo (Q4364) truly are good performers and well placed sources at Winchester indicate to me that the Bureau will switch to the 9mm, but that they will likely stay with the 147 grain weight as they remain convinced that deep penetration is the key to good stopping power. And with the 147 grain RA9B and RA9T, it looks like they are right. The other advantage is that neither RA9B nor RA9T are +P, they exhibit mild recoil and allow quick follow-up shots and are easy on the pistols. They also allow higher magazine capacity in a smaller space to fit smaller hands.

Adoption of the 9mm across the board by the FBI will also eliminate the annoying problem they have had out at Quantico with 9mm being dropped into a .40 caliber barrel and chambering a .40 behind it. A bang under these circumstances naturally results in a really exciting day at the range, as may be imagined.

The FBI faces the same difficulties that many other large agencies face in the recruitment and training of persons for the job. Unlike the gunfighters J. Edgar Hoover hired in the gangster era, they look for law, accounting and other technical areas of expertise, and a huge number of recruits have little, if any, prior knowledge or shooting experience. They are often not "gun people" in the same sense as many on this forum, and have little interest in firearms apart from learning to shoot what they are given in order to qualify.

The current 9mm ammo makes the 9mm pistol a viable choice again from a training standpoint, a financial standpoint and from other standpoints.


*For anyone who came in late, the diameter of the ".357" SIG is actually .355 (9mm), so it really should have been called the .355 SIG, but that would not have tricked anyone.

 

[M29since14]

Recoil of the .357 SIG is inconsiderable, IMO. It's an easy gun to shoot accurately because follow through is less critical than with just about anything else, I suppose.

I can see the logic that people who are not "gun people" are going to have problems with a conventional DA/SA trigger, so if TX DPS wanted to solve that and stay with .357 SIG, there were many ways to do it. Seems pretty apparent they wanted to save some money and the truth is, with modern 9x19 ammo they probably gave up very little in effectiveness in the process.

The gun is another matter. In a budget-conscious, one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter environment, maybe an M&P9 is about what you could expect. As long as they are not trying to equip/train marksmen, they will probably get along OK. I'd sure rather have a SIG.

 

[S&W Rover]

The M&P9 platform -- with the rolling changes over the past several years (the larger sear return spring, the improved trigger bar, the sear with the better shape, and the improved twist rate on the barrel) -- has moved from being a pretty good gun to a very accurate, reliable, and long-wearing pistol. It has a simple manual of arms, is easy to take down, and can be had with or without a safety. A large percentage of those who shoot it like its ergonomics, which can be tailored to the user. I find it the most comfortable gun to grip and shoot of any I have shot (and I have shot a lot of different guns). It is a very good value for the money, being commercially available (with night sights) for individual sales for $400. And the company stands behind them.

Is it "better" than a Glock, or a Sig? I don't think we have an objective measure for that decision that we would all agree on - and there is always room for personal preferences -- but the M&P9 is a pretty good pistol.

 

[Edmo]

... When the only loads for 9mm were ball or hollow points that would not expand, it made sense to go to a bigger caliber. That is no longer the case, as projectile technology has come a long way. You get expansion and penetration and good performance on auto glass and all of the other barriers used in the FBI tests...

Shawn, good points about the advance in bullet technology...

I too grew up on the 45 ACP and thought the 9mm was a "cute" round for those who couldn't handle a "man's round". In fact I initially was going to make a sarcastic remark about the change in caliber and then looked at my carry gun for today... A Shield 9mm!!

Times change and some things like bullet design and terminal performance get better and better. I hope the change works for the Texas LEOs.

I think I'll go drag out my Colt 1911 and remember the good old days of big bullets moving slowly...

Edmo

 

[Jdugan4859]

In my opinion, they should carry MP5s or some of sub gun as primary weapon. Handguns being secondary backup or if needed in a hurry. Their job is too dangerous to rely on handguns as a primary which are rather ineffective compared to what options they could have.

That would make for an intresting traffic stop, lol. Not all of Texas is rural. My 15 mile stretch of the GWB across north Dallas has about 5 Troopers that work it, and they can converge in a hurry.

 

[Boge]

I have no problem with a 9mm, BUT why oh why do we have to relive the fiasco that was the 147 gr. bullet in the late 80's to mid 90's? Anyone with half a brain (which excludes the FBI) knows that the 1,300 + fps 115 gr. JHP's like the legendary Fed. BPLE & Win. +p+ version were fight enders as proven by the IL State Police, Border Patrol, etc. I know many say "well, the new generation of 147 gr. JHP's are different" but never present any real Street data to back it up. Where's the beef? If velocity is not a factor then why does the .357 Mag. 125 gr. & .357 SIG 125 gr. have such stellar Street records? Penetration is certainly a factor for sure, but not the only thing or else we'd be using ball ammo. I'd feel better for them if they compromised and used the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +p. I don't think it's a good idea to handicap the 9mm by turning it into basically a lumbering .38 Special with 147 gr. bullets. Just my haggard old opinion.

 

[fallhunter]

Not that it makes a difference for the government, but maybe availability has something to do with it.

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