The .22 Is So Weak!!!

[Rule3]

Please, don't fall for silly energy numbers. It is the mark of someone who hasn't shot many live things. My partner in B&M Rifles over a short period of time killed 4 elephants, 8 cape buffalo, 3 African lions, and 24+ Asiatic buffalo, shooting our rifles. He is the first to tell folks kinetic energy is a calculated formula that has NOTHING to do with shooting live things.

"Silly energy numbers" OK sure.

So does he carry a 22 rifle and killed all those animals with a 22?
Lead or HP bullet??

Yep. hunting Cape Buffalo with a bolt action 22lr What fun!

 

[susieqz]

this thing about rimfire ammo being unreliable is a myth.
that only happens with bulk.
i have never had a FTF with quality 22lr, like wolf.
i usually shoot 1,000 rounds of 22 every month, so i have a pretty good sampling.
some of us just shoot 22s better. i hit what i aim at with my little 22/45.

 

[Wise_A]

this thing about rimfire ammo being unreliable is a myth.
that only happens with bulk.
i have never had a FTF with quality 22lr, like wolf.
i usually shoot 1,000 rounds of 22 every month, so i have a pretty good sampling.
some of us just shoot 22s better. i hit what i aim at with my little 22/45.

For convenience, here's That Thing I said.

Not to mention--the .22LR is not conducive to what I'd call "casual reliability". Many match shooters put in the time to achieve true reliability, and use the quality ammunition required to run for thousands of rounds in between failures.

But many shooters do not put in that sort of effort, and insist on using budget bulk ammunition. I know many shooters that simply cannot shoot a 30-round National Match Course without having a stoppage. Not good odds for a defensive pistol.

Now I'll go into further detail.

Modern shooters are spoiled rotten. They expect to toss any old ammunition into whatever they buy, and have the gun operate flawlessly. And because modern autopistols are so damned good--they mostly do!

Rimfires are a different story. They can be pretty picky, brand-to-brand, among quality brands. I've seen guns that didn't like Aguila, CCI, Eley, Wolf SK, etc, all for reasons known only to themselves.

Some shooters just can't get used to that idea.

.22LRs can also be strikingly sensitive to small errors in operation. My old Mk III match gun was happily reliable for thousands of rounds at a time--unless I just ever-so-lightly rested my thumb on the slide stop while it was cycling, at which point it would jam every time.

There was also a very nice lady who shot bullseye with us, but her Buckmark kept having stoppages during both timed and rapid fire--but always on the second string, regardless of what magazine she used. So I watched for a spell, and pointed out that while she slingshotted the slide for slow fire and the first string of timed and rapid, she always released with the slide stop for the second string of timed/rapid.

She stopped doing that, and the gun worked flawlessly thereafter. Of course, I also know of centerfire pistols that sensitive in the same way (and I wouldn't select them, either!).

Now, taking into account All Those Things I Said, is the .22LR inherently unreliable? No, of course not.

Is it as ruggedly foolproof as I would like my defensive pistols to be? Not even close.

 

[rwsmith]

Hardly stronger than a BB....

"Hardly stronger than a BB" is a very stupid thing to say.

 

[Wise_A]

I do.

A good friend of mine killed a gangbanger in a straight up gunfight, using his issued Sig P220 in .45 ACP. His killing shot hit the guy in the thigh, severing his femoral artery. He wasn't happy with his shooting, though under the circumstances (bullets coming his way) I'd say he did fine. While his .45 was in administrative time-out he asked for and was issued a 9mm Sig 226. When his 220 was released, he stuck with the 9mm since he shot it better.

He later used it to shoot and kill a running pit bull that had mauled a kid, and was satisfied with his choice.

That's only if you consider a 9mm less-powerful than a .45

With modern bullet design and ammunition quality, I wouldn't. As much as that will enrage some.

 

[JavierLaurido]

I have hunted from big game to small in this last 25 years on a land with plagues of rabbits. Some days i hunted by the morning, then after lunch, and then during the night all in the same day. I think i have kill more than 100.000 rabbits in al hunting configurations; on a truck, on a van, from cars, even some time from horses, with day ligth, or with lámps during night.

All those rabbit hunts where done; 95%, with 22 LR rifle, 3% with carabine pistols and pistols also on 22 LR, and a few 2% with shotgun (12 Gauge).

And I conclude by the experience of have hunted many year with the 22LR. That this caliber is week in general terms. I have seen thousens of rabbits escape with a well placed shot on them, and others escaping only wounded.

I tend to think, that if a rabbit that weigth less than 5 kilograms, can survive a shot of 22, and i have seen too many cases of that, what can it do to attackers who weigth 130 kilograms.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If there was no alternative but to use .22LR for carry I suppose I'd get something like an 8-shot LCR revolver. This eliminates issues of rimfire autoloader stoppages and mitigates ignition failures by only having to pull the trigger again to get to a new round. That said, I agree with susieqz that ignition failures are insignificant with quality rimfire ammo. Probably use CCI Stingers or some other hyper velocity round to try to get a bit more velocity out of the short barrel.

If I was going to make an argument for the use of .22LR, it would be that it's less expensive and less punishing to shoot than most popular centerfire handgun cartridges. All things being equal, that should translate to more practice and a better more accurate shooter.

All that said... 22LR for self defense? No thanks. Not unless I was physically handicapped and unable to cope with heavier recoil.

 

[susieqz]

the more practice thing is really true for some of us. i can shoot 120 rounds of 22lr with no degredation of accuracy in a morning.
but 24 38spc is as much as i can do.

 

[Gulfecho]

No comment except I heard the majority of killings are done with .22s.

I agree. In fact I recently read an article that .22s kill more people in the U.S. than all calibers combined!

 

[kthom]

That's only if you consider a 9mm less-powerful than a .45

With modern bullet design and ammunition quality, I wouldn't. As much as that will enrage some.

I won't argue that a .45 cannot be or is not more "powerful" than a 9MM. After all, physics is still always physics. However, I will contend that the two calibers (and some others as well) are and can be equally "effective" when using comparable ammo and when they strike comparable targets. I know what Wise A means here, and I'm not trying to be disagreeable with what he has stated. I am very comfortable choosing a well made bullet in any caliber from .38 Special to .45 for my personal protection needs. But I think there are some that are not the best choice for the job. Who would say that a .44Mag will not get the job done? But most of us cannot use that caliber very effectively, at least not as effectively as something that has less recoil and shorter shot to shot recovery times. There is, after all, the effectiveness of the round or caliber being used AND the effectiveness of the shooter using that round that must be considered. BOTH need to be effective to get the job done right!

I was NOT a fan of the 9MM until advancements were made in the ammo that it shoots that are available to us today. I think most all calibers are more potentially effective with the ammo available today for them. Technology has improved things for all of them and for us. However, I still say that with any ammo, more depends on where the bullets strike and what they disrupt or destroy in the process and whether they have the potential to penetrate deeply enough to do their most effective job. My personal opinion is that penetration is the most important factor in bullet effectiveness. I like my personal protection bullet choices to expand, but if they do not penetrate well, they are not as effective as they need to be.

Any round or caliber that is capable of routinely performing well enough to do the job will do nicely. If a round or caliber is capable of performing well beyond that level of effectiveness that is necessary, then I say that "extra" performance does me no real good. On the other hand, I'd rather have a bit more than a little bit less than is optimum. But no damage is done by a loud noise beyond possibly soiling a clean pair of underwear! Only good hits count and have a chance to do the job right!!

So shoot what you can shoot most effectively and accurately. Shoot and carry what you personally can handle the best. Then pick the best performing bullet in that caliber you can find and use it! It takes some time and research to find it, and thankfully, we have many to choose among. Ain't it great?

 

[Wyo]

"Silly energy numbers" OK sure.

So does he carry a 22 rifle and killed all those animals with a 22?
Lead or HP bullet??

Yep. hunting Cape Buffalo with a bolt action 22lr What fun!

Peter Capstick wrote in one of his books of a couple of local boys who used a .22 to kill elephants. According to the story, one of them had done it by accident then, on a bet with a local warden that he could do it again, he did it again. Capstick said the trick was to wait for the elephant to take a step forward, then place the bullet through the skin in the "armpit" and into the large arteries over the heart. Apparently, an elephant's skin is thinnest at that point and a .22 will penetrate it. It takes a while for the elephant to bleed out, but he swore it could be done. Hardly sporting and I can't vouch for the authenticity of the story but, assuming it to be true, it certainly proves the old adage that placement is everything and that a .22, properly placed, will do about anything you ask of it.

 

[shouldazagged]

Well, Jayframer, I appreciated your original post.

Anecdotal reports and energy figures be damned. Your point that .22LR is a lethal round like any other caliber was well stated.

I might be scared spitless looking down the gaping bore of a .45ACP handgun in the hands of an assailant. But I don't know that I'd feel a damn bit better if he was holding a .22. I would be confident that he could kill me with it if he chose.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Not my first choice for self defense but beats feet, fists and foul language.
And hits with Minor Calibers hurt a lot more than Misses with Majors.

 

[rwsmith]

Two reasons influence that....

I agree. In fact I recently read an article that .22s kill more people in the U.S. than all calibers combined!

One, .22s in all varieties are common as dirt.
Two. I believe that a lot of these are accidental shootings from somebody playing around with a .22 around the house.

One of my wife's students unfortunately got killed by a .22. Several boys were hunting (what I don't know) when the boy in front got excited and stood up in front of the boy that was shooting. Back of the head.......fatal.

 

[rwsmith]

Another trick...

Peter Capstick wrote in one of his books of a couple of local boys who used a .22 to kill elephants. According to the story, one of them had done it by accident then, on a bet with a local warden that he could do it again, he did it again. Capstick said the trick was to wait for the elephant to take a step forward, then place the bullet through the skin in the "armpit" and into the large arteries over the heart. Apparently, an elephant's skin is thinnest at that point and a .22 will penetrate it. It takes a while for the elephant to bleed out, but he swore it could be done. Hardly sporting and I can't vouch for the authenticity of the story but, assuming it to be true, it certainly proves the old adage that placement is everything and that a .22, properly placed, will do about anything you ask of it.

One hunter, I think using a .270 or similar, let the elephant to pass by him, then shot it behind the ear in the rear quarter of the head. Apparently that was a short cut to the brain rather than trying to dig through the frontal skull.

 

[rwsmith]

The winds of caliber wars are starting to blow....

.... I have a simple solution to the 'enough power?" problem. If I pull the trigger it's not going to be just once.

 

[Ranger514]

Back in high school, a heavyset friend of mine stuck a loaded .22 semiauto in his back pocket while we were out in the woods. It went off when he took a step crossing a steep draw. The bullet entered the heavy meat and fat of his right calf, traveled over 12 inches making a 180 degree circuit around his leg before exiting above his ankle.

While I don't carry a .22 as a primary, that incident clearly showed me that at close range, the small bore can cause a lot of damage.

 

[Wise_A]

That said, I agree with susieqz that ignition failures are insignificant with quality rimfire ammo.

Then you agree with both of us.

The point is that many of the people that want to use a .22 for self-defense either don't want to use the good stuff, or just don't know what that is.

So shoot what you can shoot most effectively and accurately. Shoot and carry what you personally can handle the best. Then pick the best performing bullet in that caliber you can find and use it! It takes some time and research to find it, and thankfully, we have many to choose among. Ain't it great?

Yes. I would personally draw the line pretty far down. I believe I saw a study looking at SD shootings, averaging number of shots to "stop". Everything from .380 to .45 took, on average, the same number of shots. .32 ACP took one more.

Hence, I would look more at the gun than the cartridge--what's one comfortable with, can carry, can operate, etc. Trying to objectively rank "stopping power" strikes me as a fool's errand. If I remember correctly, there was a Shooting Illustrated article examining expansion and penetration in 12 or 15 popular .45 ACP factory SD loadings. I believe the best-performing cartridge produced numbers double that of the worst.

Which is itself pointless--who knows how well that would correlate to actual performance?

 

[joeintexas]

​

Not my first choice for self defense but beats feet, fists and foul language.
And hits with Minor Calibers hurt a lot more than Misses with Majors.

If the choice is being hit by a. 22 or missed by a .45 I will take the miss everytime.

 

[DeathGrip]

A .22 might bounce off of bone and do whacko things. It might go in your ear and rattle your brain. It might hit a artery or even a heart. It might do all of this and more. Heck it has.

Now tell me honestly if the same shot with a bigger bullet would have caused less damage.

Yep It could happen. Not likely.

I'd rather break bones than bounce around waiting for a vital.

I'd rather remove most of your brain with the exit wound.

I'd want expansion with a center mass.

But I'd still fill you full of holes with a .22 if I had no other choice.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

More people have been killed with a .22 than any other chambering. It is the choice of professional killers because it is quiet and at close range entirely lethal. I do not recall anyone volunteering to be hit by a .22. Certainly not me.

 

[oldRoger]

I had a photo of a three man Israeli sniper team operating during the last Gaza raid. The marksman was armed with a scoped 10/22, it had a shortened barrel and was suppressed. I did not see an extended magazine.
I understand they are used at distances up to 50 meters. I would suspect head shots only but I really don't know who to ask.
Based upon my 10/22 look-alikes, I would say 1moa is obtainable. You would not want to be hit in your Left eye with this rig (or your Right one either).

About ammunition reliability, I have shot about a case so far this year, mixed between CCI-SV, Eley, and Lapua. I have not had a single misfire (M41s, Pardini, Anschutz, and 10/22 clones). I used to take my K-22 along to fire any ammunition which didn't fire first time around but haven't needed it this year.

My ammunition is certainly not all of equal precision, but it has been reliable.

 

[dougb1946]

Sectional density, according to the SpeerReloading Manual No. 13, is defined as: "A bullet's weight in pounds divided by the square of its diameter in inches." Note that SD is independent of a bullet's shape. All bullets of the same caliber and weight will have the same SD, regardless of their shape or composition.

.22lr penetrates as well as a .38. After that, placement matters.

 

[susieqz]

i just checked penetration.
a couple days back, i tested 38spc vs 2x4s.
i found they would pass thru 2 2x4s n bury themselves in a third, the end being 3/8'' deep in the third.
i just stepped outside n did the same test with 22lr.
i was shocked to find that i got exactly the same penetration with 22lr, tho from a 5 1/2'' barrel.
anything that will pass thru 2 2x4s n keep going will kill anything on this continent.

 

[Rule3]

i just checked penetration.
a couple days back, i tested 38spc vs 2x4s.
i found they would pass thru 2 2x4s n bury themselves in a third, the end being 3/8'' deep in the third.
i just stepped outside n did the same test with 22lr.
i was shocked to find that i got exactly the same penetration with 22lr, tho from a 5 1/2'' barrel.
anything that will pass thru 2 2x4s n keep going will kill anything on this continent.

Pin/Fir 2x4 wood is a soft wood. Try shooting some oak.

light high velocity

Heavy slow velocity

Tiz why the 45 ACP at around 800+ fps is so effective.

But as we "learned" from another post(s) all anyone needs is a 22 lr.

 

[Funflyer]

An older video but interesting.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY[/ame]

 

[revolver59]

So doe's this mean that size really matters!!

 

[Arik]

Racked my brain in review. I am thinking this is a historic first.

Someone decided by zero!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[crossv]

Record size grizzly .22 kill

http://www.angelfire.com/on2/LandOwner/misc/Grizley1.html
Grizzly kill in 1953?

 

[amazingflapjack]

small calibers and small motorcycles: lose respect for them, and get ready for the pain.