The 4506-1 approved this message.
- Thread starter 18DAI
- Start date
Some good YouTube videos by Earnest Langdon on the merits of DA/SA autos.......also some good ones by Bill Wilson. I've been a convert and proponent of DA/SA for concealed carry since 1988
One thing I will add is that the option of converting a safety/decocker to decocker only; using a $50 kit from Beretta has been a great option. Just wish there were more S&W decocker kits available.
One thing I will add is that the option of converting a safety/decocker to decocker only; using a $50 kit from Beretta has been a great option. Just wish there were more S&W decocker kits available.
A seller on another forum has a Hartford PD issued 4506-1 for sale. He's asking over $900.00 dollars firm for the gun.
He included part of a Roy Jinks letter. The interesting part was that Jinks said that although the 4506-1 was discontinued in 2000, there were examples built up to 2003 for various distributors.
There is also some information on the evolution from the 645 to the 4506.
The gun being sold has the "Third" Trigger Guard, which I thought interesting.
He included part of a Roy Jinks letter. The interesting part was that Jinks said that although the 4506-1 was discontinued in 2000, there were examples built up to 2003 for various distributors.
There is also some information on the evolution from the 645 to the 4506.
The gun being sold has the "Third" Trigger Guard, which I thought interesting.
Some people carry a gun camping. It is instructive to think about a pistol lying loose and handy next to your sleeping bag, or even in the bag with you while you sleep - would you pick striker or DA/SA? Which one feels safer?
A little different feeling than on the belt in a proper holster!
A little different feeling than on the belt in a proper holster!
fiasconva
Member
Thanks 18DAI. I'll be in Burlington in the near future and just may pay a visit.
Either. It would still be holstered.
Denver Dick
US Veteran
Excellent original post. After reading it the very first thing that popped in my mind was, "Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it!" I believe that one is courtesy of Clint Smith. 
HCH
Member
You and O'bama are the best gun salesmen ever.
Nobody drifted the thread........??....OK. Well......heres a couple more things I noticed then
Most of my life among handguns I spent with LE. My family.....all of them, were NYPD or Nassau County PD. Then I spent 20 years working Investigations and now 4 years as a criminal Magistrate. And I noticed that, generally, LE conceals their guns with no fuss. On the occasions they need to. Whereas non LE seems to over think the whole thing.
Since LE is generally not required to conceal their guns, depending on policy and assignment, maybe they just learn that you can conceal any size gun. You just get a premium belt, holster and dress around the gun. The only guys I ever saw not do that were the Vice/Narcotics, UC guys. Because their assignment dictated it. Only good guys use holsters. The miscreants know that. So if your job is to pass for one of the miscreants, no holster for you. And UC Officers use guns not normally associated with LE.
The State once sent 3 of us for a course on plainclothes handgun training. Very interesting and I learned a lot. But the Chief Investigator told me I would never do UC work, because I look like a cop.
Anyways, there are some limits to what you can conceal, based on your physical build. If you are 5 foot nothing and 110 soaking wet, folks are going to see that Sig 220 or Glock 21 printing. No matter what you do. Perhaps a compact 245 or G30S carried IWB will work better. IF you are trying to conceal it. A lot of the non LE that come in the shop don't seem to want to.
I won't get into the whole open carry thing here. I will leave that for the folks in that quagmire of questionable advice known as the "CCW" section. Suffice it to say, I am not a fan. IMO it makes you a target. Homey wants a gun. He can't legally obtain one. So, he will take yours that is in plain view on display. Me? I want him and his fellow travelers to be surprised that I have a gun. So, I conceal it. And at 6 foot 1 and growing to 240 in retirement I carry IWB. And I routinely conceal full size (4506-1/4566/HK USP45) guns in a quality Galco holster. Pancake holsters work well too. Except under a golf shirt.
Ammo selection. Who ever said that RIP ammo was worth a damn? Not only is it worthless, it is EXPENSIVE! We get $2"a round for that junk. If I want fragmentation, I will get a grenade. Penetration and expansion are desireable. Nuff said. Well, except that if you come in wanting a box of RIP ammo, please do not wear your Afghan boots. You couldn't find Afghanistan on a map and likely can't spell it. We don't think you are an operator. Thanks!
And finally, the whole "empty chamber" thing. Let me get this straight. You don't carry with ome in the chamber because "....its dangerous!" Well....if my gun wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't want it. And yes, I know about the Israelis. And you ain't from Tel Aviv. You will not have time to rack the slide. Because you will likely be surprised that you are involved in an unfortunate incident (ie 2nd one to know you are in a fight). And probably using your off hand to fight with your attacker. And in 20 years in Investigations the thing I heard the most from survivors of violent crime was "It happened so fast!".
Working at the local range I disarmed an average of two people a day. These were folks.....wearing Afghan boots who could not or would not read the signs on the door and in the lobby, which were 6 ft x 5 ft and said; "DO NOT UNHOLSTER OR UNCASE YOUR HANDGUN IN THE LOBBY".
Almost 90 percent of these guns were striker fired plastic. And every one of them had a loaded mag and nothing in the chamber. Every one of them. Dead men walking, IMHO.
If folks are not comfortable carrying a semi auto with one in the chamber, ready to defend their life, they should either seek out competent training, to enable them to do so, or seek out another platform. Like a revolver or a TDA pistol with a manual safety. I was stunned at the number of folks wandering around out there with empty chambers. You would be too. If you know someone like that, help them. You may be saving their life. Seriously. Regards 18DAI
Most of my life among handguns I spent with LE. My family.....all of them, were NYPD or Nassau County PD. Then I spent 20 years working Investigations and now 4 years as a criminal Magistrate. And I noticed that, generally, LE conceals their guns with no fuss. On the occasions they need to. Whereas non LE seems to over think the whole thing.
Since LE is generally not required to conceal their guns, depending on policy and assignment, maybe they just learn that you can conceal any size gun. You just get a premium belt, holster and dress around the gun. The only guys I ever saw not do that were the Vice/Narcotics, UC guys. Because their assignment dictated it. Only good guys use holsters. The miscreants know that. So if your job is to pass for one of the miscreants, no holster for you. And UC Officers use guns not normally associated with LE.
The State once sent 3 of us for a course on plainclothes handgun training. Very interesting and I learned a lot. But the Chief Investigator told me I would never do UC work, because I look like a cop.
Anyways, there are some limits to what you can conceal, based on your physical build. If you are 5 foot nothing and 110 soaking wet, folks are going to see that Sig 220 or Glock 21 printing. No matter what you do. Perhaps a compact 245 or G30S carried IWB will work better. IF you are trying to conceal it. A lot of the non LE that come in the shop don't seem to want to.
I won't get into the whole open carry thing here. I will leave that for the folks in that quagmire of questionable advice known as the "CCW" section.
Suffice it to say, I am not a fan. IMO it makes you a target. Homey wants a gun. He can't legally obtain one. So, he will take yours that is in plain view on display. Me? I want him and his fellow travelers to be surprised that I have a gun. So, I conceal it. And at 6 foot 1 and growing to 240 in retirement I carry IWB. And I routinely conceal full size (4506-1/4566/HK USP45) guns in a quality Galco holster. Pancake holsters work well too. Except under a golf shirt.Ammo selection. Who ever said that RIP ammo was worth a damn? Not only is it worthless, it is EXPENSIVE! We get $2"a round for that junk. If I want fragmentation, I will get a grenade. Penetration and expansion are desireable. Nuff said. Well, except that if you come in wanting a box of RIP ammo, please do not wear your Afghan boots. You couldn't find Afghanistan on a map and likely can't spell it. We don't think you are an operator. Thanks!
And finally, the whole "empty chamber" thing. Let me get this straight. You don't carry with ome in the chamber because "....its dangerous!" Well....if my gun wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't want it. And yes, I know about the Israelis. And you ain't from Tel Aviv. You will not have time to rack the slide. Because you will likely be surprised that you are involved in an unfortunate incident (ie 2nd one to know you are in a fight). And probably using your off hand to fight with your attacker. And in 20 years in Investigations the thing I heard the most from survivors of violent crime was "It happened so fast!".
Working at the local range I disarmed an average of two people a day. These were folks.....wearing Afghan boots
who could not or would not read the signs on the door and in the lobby, which were 6 ft x 5 ft and said; "DO NOT UNHOLSTER OR UNCASE YOUR HANDGUN IN THE LOBBY".Almost 90 percent of these guns were striker fired plastic. And every one of them had a loaded mag and nothing in the chamber. Every one of them. Dead men walking, IMHO.
If folks are not comfortable carrying a semi auto with one in the chamber, ready to defend their life, they should either seek out competent training, to enable them to do so, or seek out another platform. Like a revolver or a TDA pistol with a manual safety. I was stunned at the number of folks wandering around out there with empty chambers. You would be too. If you know someone like that, help them. You may be saving their life. Seriously. Regards 18DAI
vigil617
US Veteran
I must be way out of the loop, 'cause I had no idea what "RIP ammo" was. Now that I've read up on it, I think I'll give it a pass. Thanks, 18.
vigil617 don't feel left out. Till I started working in the shop, I never heard of it either. Evidently someone put up videos on Youtube about it.
And the folks who come in......open carrying with thigh rig holsters......and wearing Afghan boots to buy it, say its "the deadliest ammo on the planet!".
I just smile and take their $40 plus tax for 20 rounds. Regards 18DAI
And the folks who come in......open carrying with thigh rig holsters......and wearing Afghan boots
to buy it, say its "the deadliest ammo on the planet!".I just smile and take their $40 plus tax for 20 rounds.
Regards 18DAIWell Done 18DAI
I am unable to remember another post where I was completely convinced that the author was sharing his experience and expertise with no added BS normally spewed from the self proclaimed experts, thank you, 18 Sir! I'm too old to have enjoyed the semi-auto hand guns during my career as a reserve officer in a small town here in N.C. but I see your respect for them and actually I have now acquired several of my own. I have not had an opportunity to acquire a M-4506 but would be more receptive now that I have read your post, very well done and informative, again, thanks for sharing your thoughts and for the adopted attitude the shop where you hang out employs, more businesses should subscribe. My Best To You!
I am unable to remember another post where I was completely convinced that the author was sharing his experience and expertise with no added BS normally spewed from the self proclaimed experts, thank you, 18 Sir! I'm too old to have enjoyed the semi-auto hand guns during my career as a reserve officer in a small town here in N.C. but I see your respect for them and actually I have now acquired several of my own. I have not had an opportunity to acquire a M-4506 but would be more receptive now that I have read your post, very well done and informative, again, thanks for sharing your thoughts and for the adopted attitude the shop where you hang out employs, more businesses should subscribe. My Best To You!
Rowlf
Member
Any suggestions for shooting DA/SA well? I am considering parting with my 4506 and 457 due to not being able to hold the 8 ring on a B-8 target at 25 yards with good ammo or call my shots.
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Do you have Hogue grips on the 4506 or 457? I would try that, or a rubber grip sleeve over the OEM grip. That way the twisting motion or torque during firing amd recoil is reduced. Anchors the gun in the hand, for me.
Then I would get a bag of snap caps. Put a piece of tape on the wall, around 10 to 15 feet away. Practice basics, to start with. Grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger control. Don't let your finger leave the trigger. Maintain contact with it.
Watch your sight alignment. Does the front sight jog left or right as you break the shot? Tighten that grip a little and make sure that you don't have too much finger on the trigger. The edge of the pad of your finger, forward of the last joint, should rest on the trigger. Practice a smooth, constant steady pull - all the way through till the hammer falls. Practice in DA only till you see that your sight picture is no lomger disturbed before or during the hammer falling.
Once this is accomplished, practice DA for the first shot, then thumb cock the hammer to practice the SA portion. When you feel proficient, get a quater. Lay it on the top of the slide. Now practice your grip, stance, sight alignment and trigger pull without the quater falling off the slide. In DA and SA.
15 minutes of dry fire, every night for a week. You WILL see an improvement at the range. It is cheap practice that pays big dividends.
And don't give up on the 457. I have a hard time being accurate with mine. It is light and slim. Harder to shoot well than the other models. Were I you, I would master the trigger on the 4506, first. Dedicate yourself to becoming proficient with it first, before moving on to the 457. Whether that takes a few weeks, a few months or a year.
I have a friend who is in his 7th month of shooting ONLY his revolver. He is dedicated to improving his skill set. I admire him and his determination and discipline. I have shot with him several times and he is actually pretty good. But he doesn't believe me. He is going to work on his trigger control and only shoot that one gun for the rest of the year. I have tempted him to try some nice and rare pistols - but he is focused and refuses to shoot anything else. Very admirable. He will be successful.
My last suggestion would be to bring that target in from the 25 yard line. In a defensive shooting, if the targets 25 yards away, you should be looking for cover and calling 911. Prosecutors take a dim view of folks shooting others beyond 10 to 15 yards. Ask me how I know that.
Start at the 1 or 3 yard line. Work the basics, just as you did in the dry firing sessions. Then move it out to 5 or 7 yards once you see that you are getting good hits and wearing a jagged hole in the 10 ring. Then go to 15 or 20. If you start getting rounds outside the 10 ring, slow down, bring it back in and work the basics. You seeing a pattern here?
Crawl, walk, run. The results of a determined effort will reward you. Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI
Then I would get a bag of snap caps. Put a piece of tape on the wall, around 10 to 15 feet away. Practice basics, to start with. Grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger control. Don't let your finger leave the trigger. Maintain contact with it.
Watch your sight alignment. Does the front sight jog left or right as you break the shot? Tighten that grip a little and make sure that you don't have too much finger on the trigger. The edge of the pad of your finger, forward of the last joint, should rest on the trigger. Practice a smooth, constant steady pull - all the way through till the hammer falls. Practice in DA only till you see that your sight picture is no lomger disturbed before or during the hammer falling.
Once this is accomplished, practice DA for the first shot, then thumb cock the hammer to practice the SA portion. When you feel proficient, get a quater. Lay it on the top of the slide. Now practice your grip, stance, sight alignment and trigger pull without the quater falling off the slide. In DA and SA.
15 minutes of dry fire, every night for a week. You WILL see an improvement at the range. It is cheap practice that pays big dividends.
And don't give up on the 457. I have a hard time being accurate with mine. It is light and slim. Harder to shoot well than the other models. Were I you, I would master the trigger on the 4506, first. Dedicate yourself to becoming proficient with it first, before moving on to the 457. Whether that takes a few weeks, a few months or a year.
I have a friend who is in his 7th month of shooting ONLY his revolver. He is dedicated to improving his skill set. I admire him and his determination and discipline. I have shot with him several times and he is actually pretty good. But he doesn't believe me. He is going to work on his trigger control and only shoot that one gun for the rest of the year. I have tempted him to try some nice and rare pistols - but he is focused and refuses to shoot anything else. Very admirable. He will be successful.
My last suggestion would be to bring that target in from the 25 yard line. In a defensive shooting, if the targets 25 yards away, you should be looking for cover and calling 911. Prosecutors take a dim view of folks shooting others beyond 10 to 15 yards. Ask me how I know that.
Start at the 1 or 3 yard line. Work the basics, just as you did in the dry firing sessions. Then move it out to 5 or 7 yards once you see that you are getting good hits and wearing a jagged hole in the 10 ring. Then go to 15 or 20. If you start getting rounds outside the 10 ring, slow down, bring it back in and work the basics. You seeing a pattern here?
Crawl, walk, run. The results of a determined effort will reward you. Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI
Rowlf
Member
Thanks for the reply. There are a lot of good suggestions in it. I'm pretty good at dry firing and often try to see how many DA pulls I can do with a 22 LR case on the slide before it drops off. The thin factory grips do cause me problems as well as the SA trigger location being so far back in the trigger guard.
I like 25 yards as that is what we shoot for the short line in Bullseye competition, and I figure if I can hold the repair center or 8 ring on a flat range with two hands performance at ten ~ fifteen yards under less favorable conditions should be attainable. A competition Service Pistol 1911 with hardball or Marine Corps load no problem, the same loads in DA/SA S&Ws and I can reuse the repair centers.
I like 25 yards as that is what we shoot for the short line in Bullseye competition, and I figure if I can hold the repair center or 8 ring on a flat range with two hands performance at ten ~ fifteen yards under less favorable conditions should be attainable. A competition Service Pistol 1911 with hardball or Marine Corps load no problem, the same loads in DA/SA S&Ws and I can reuse the repair centers.
Excellent post! I am amazed that anyone would carry a loaded gun without a round in the chamber. That was a big surprise to me.
What happens to the nice old revolvers and collectable guns that wander in there for trade? I know we never see that at any of our high end shops in this area. I know they come in and get traded as I have seen that at a small shop I frequent. Do they all just go off to auction sites like GB? Or do all the employees get 1st dibs and so they never make it to the counter? Inquiring minds..??
What happens to the nice old revolvers and collectable guns that wander in there for trade? I know we never see that at any of our high end shops in this area. I know they come in and get traded as I have seen that at a small shop I frequent. Do they all just go off to auction sites like GB? Or do all the employees get 1st dibs and so they never make it to the counter? Inquiring minds..??
Jeppo
Member
I’m pretty sure normal civilians must get an occasional shot at those guns. Imagine that poor friend of 18’s, who’s only shooting one revolver all year, and has a chance to buy a beautiful older semi-auto knowing it’d be half a year before being able to shoot it. Must be torture for that guy.
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