The Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

[federali]

By now you must have heard that Gregory McMichael and his son, Travis have been charged in the shooting death of an apparent jogger, they believed fit the description of a neighborhood burglar.

As discussed in this forum in both full and partial threads, there is no future in taking the law into your own hands and attempting citizens' arrests. I would like to think it was Massad Ayoob ( I may be mistaken here) who advised that no matter what your state has to say about citizens' arrest, it's best not to make a citizens' arrest. The laws are so treacherous and murky that you risk life as you know it once the legal machine begins to grind you up.

In the state laws that I'm familiar with, a citizens' arrest is permissible for a crime committed in your presence. Searching the neighborhood for someone the "fits the description" of a criminal is a job best left to the police. Once would think that after the Trayvon Martin shooting, in 2012, in Florida by George Zimmerman, people in general would have been awakened to the risks of overzealous participation in citizens' or neighborhood watch groups. These individuals should be the eyes and ears of the police the rather than arming themselves and trying to do their job for them.

I've mentioned it before in several threads: if your home suffers a break-in, any shots fired in self-defense within your home are easily viewed as legitimate self defense. If the intruder flees and you give chase outside your home, you are no longer acting in self defense but are now attempting a citizens' arrest where the laws become a legal minefield.

I think it's important that besides the elements to successful firearms engagements, we must also be intimately familiar with our local laws and how they may apply to the situation you find yourself in. Make a bad call and personal bankruptcy is the likely result.

 

[robrossk]

AMEN to the OP. Those two guys acted in a totally unacceptable way and I hope they get the book thrown at them (IMHO).

 

[ContinentalOp]

Make a bad call and personal bankruptcy is the likely result.

Or worse.

A good reason to know the relevant laws before something happens. I live in a Constitutional Carry state, but I still took the carry permit class, not only for reciprocity when traveling out-of-state, but also to learn my state's carry and self defense laws.

While it seems to be a somewhat controversial subject in these forums, it may also be worth it to consider one of the self-defense legal services available, or have a lawyer knowledgeable of self defense law on retainer. Like a gun, you may go through life never needing it, but if you do, you really need it.

 

[Sgt911]

Legal or not, weigh the risk, the short and long ramifications. There are no takebacks. A mentor Sgt of mine used to say "100 years from now, you wont know the difference"

 

[stansdds]

Federali said it well.

 

[blues7]

Back in the early 80's I remember when NYPD met with our federal LEOs and advised that the best course of action off-duty was to drop a dime and report a crime, rather than get involved (unless exigent circumstances were present).

"Be a good witness" was what they counseled for their own off-duty officers as well as us feds. There is wisdom in that advice.

Personally, outside of my home, I will only get involved if there is a threat of loss of life or grave bodily harm to myself or others...if I feel I can make a difference without putting others at risk.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Throw the book at em.

 

[WR Moore]

In many states "citizens arrest" is limited to a felony committed in your presence. Also, in many states figuring out what may be a felony/heinous felony can be confusing/difficult at best and may be dependent upon murky circumstances. Some states may throw in "breach of the peace" as grounds for a citizen arrest which can be even murkier.

There's been a lot of change in folks perception/outlook since most of our legal codes were originated.

 

[Drm50]

Them boys are done for. There was no justification for them to stop the guy let alone at gun point. If they hadn't killed him he would own everything they have. To many people think a gun is a badge. It's simple, no gun unless a life threatening situation. You can't make one by starting a fight.

 

[cbore]

They were wrong, wrong, wrong. Matters no their reasoning just wanting to play cop ended wrong. My opinion was a retired LEO

 

[Mike 139]

Back in the early 80's I remember when NYPD met with our federal LEOs and advised that the best course of action off-duty was to drop a dime and report a crime, rather than get involved (unless exigent circumstances were present).

"Be a good witness" was what they counseled for their own off-duty officers as well as us feds. There is wisdom in that advice.

Personally, outside of my home, I will only get involved if there is a threat of loss of life or grave bodily harm to myself or others...if I feel I can make a difference without putting others at risk.

This. The media is reporting that this occurred in February and that the Father/Son thought the Victim looked like a Subject caught on a surveillance camera from a prior burglary.....At the time ,they weren't charged.

The proper action in this case would have been to call it in and report it and let LE handle it. There was NO imminent danger to to the Father/son or others at the time, You always have to conduct yourself and act as a reasonable and prudent Person.

I had a DI tell me back in 1966," If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough"

These two have been arrested and charged with murder and agg assault,not to mention what the big G will come up with.

Make stupid choices, win stupid prizes.

 

[pmosley]

Ignorance, adrenaline and guns are a dangerous combination - these men should now be tried by a jury of their peers and punished in accordance with the law if found guilty.

What we don't need, is for this to be the impetus of unnecessary hate crime laws to be adopted by my home state of Georgia.

Punish illegal actions, not misguided motives....


Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Drm50]

It amazes me that with all the troubles going on over racism that people could be so stupid as to cause this kind of issue when it could easily been avoided. To me there are two victims, the actual victim & his family and all the law abiding citizens that are gun owners. Everyone of these incidents adds ammo to anti gunners.

 

[pennzy]

Seems like without a picture it didn't happen. Should not have taken 2 months for an arrest to be made.

 

[armenius]

This should never have happened, stupid vigilantes.
However the victim did not display a lot of intelligence by grabbing the barrel of a shotgun and fighting for possession when confronted by two vigilantes who had the drop on him.
I would wager that most of the cases of adversaries fighting over a firearm ends in at least one being shot.

 

[LPD256]

It takes very few instances like this one, adding in armored-up AR carriers at State Capitals protesting public safety orders, to make life as we know it to change. Throw in a few confederate battle flags, run over some folks peacefully protesting, some crazy kid shoots up his high school, and all gun owners will be vilified. Support for reducing our 2nd amendment rights will increase. I'm not being political here. Merely stating my fears. Ask a Canadian how they feel now that they are facing a ban.

 

[Retired LTC USAR]

Had the third individual not recorded the act, I don't believe that anything would have been done to the father and son.

 

[LPD256]

Had the third individual not recorded the act, I don't believe that anything would have been done to the father and son.

Personally, I think the third individual may be connected to the father and son. Maybe not, but it is unusual and worth investigating.

 

[federali]

Aggressor

In the laws of self-defense, the aggressor, depending on your state, may not claim self defense but the victim may attempt to disarm the aggressor as part of his self defense. I would expect attorneys for the father and son would try to turn this around and muddy up the legal waters. The video apparently shows the father and son stopping their vehicle and producing shotguns. The victim cannot know nor does the law require him to know the intentions of his attackers. Perhaps resistance was a poor choice but he still acted in self defense.

 

[geoff40]

Arbery was out in public, guilty of nothing. He'd still be alive if those 2 didn't leave the privacy of their own home specifically to chase him down. I wouldn't want to be in the situation they're in.

 

[Injunbro]

They called the police for a suspected burglar w/ prior shoplifting charges (possibly unknown to them), then followed him. All legal so far. However stopping him was over the line, brandishing a gun while stopping him, way over the line unless they claimed to be making a citizens arrest (they're not claiming that). Possible kidnapping? At that point thy can't legitimately claim self defense but Arbery might since they came after him... if he survived the attack. Getting that close to a suspect is bad tactics, obviously had no idea what they were doing. Arbery had reason to protect himself since a couple pickups full of armed rednecks were chasing him. Father & son are in a world of trouble. The videoing neighbor is now in the middle of a mess although his intent may have been good.

 

[zzclancy]

I'm probably the only one here who thinks they won't be convicted of murder.

That being said incredibly stupid to go looking for trouble. Usually you find it.

 

[Drm50]

Manslaughter at the least & they are going to loose everything they own in civil suits.

 

[pennzy]

Even if they had no intension for it to end that way, they have to be responsible for their actions.

 

[biku324]

I'm probably the only one here who thinks they won't be convicted of murder.

That being said incredibly stupid to go looking for trouble. Usually you find it.

Dunno about there, but in New Mexico this would be straight up voluntary manslaughter with a firearm enhancement.

 

[LCC]

a corrupt police chief, a corrupt DA who is definitely becoming a headline, this is just a slice from current reporting on how grim conditions in this county have been:

"On Feb. 28, Glynn County Police Chief John Powell was indicted, along with two officers and the police chief from nearby Vidalia, on charges of covering up crimes allegedly committed by members of the department's drug task force. Former members of the since-disbanded task force were accused of suppressing evidence in a fatal police chase, sleeping and doing meth and cocaine with a confidential informant, carrying a handgun while drinking in a bar, coercing witnesses, and lying to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation about at least one of those instances of misconduct."


"Sasser, one of the two officers involved in Small's killing, went on to kill his wife and her friend before turning the gun on himself in June 2018. He was out on bond at the time, after threatening his estranged wife at her home. After that, Sasser had attacked police officers during an armed standoff and was again released on bond, an agreement DA Johnson negotiated with a local judge. Out on that bond, he threatened his estranged wife and her male companion at a restaurant. Two days later, he killed the pair."

 

[sigp220.45]

I'll wait for the rest of the story before pronouncing judgement.

In the coming days and weeks the dead guy's mugshots will be released by the defense, along with his criminal history. Maybe the doorbell cam video, or other witnesses who saw him interrupt his jog by poking around in a home under construction.

I'll let the system work.

 

[ladder13]

I'll wait for the rest of the story before pronouncing judgement.

In the coming days and weeks the dead guy's mugshots will be released by the defense, along with his criminal history. Maybe the doorbell cam video, or other witnesses who saw him interrupt his jog by poking around in a home under construction.

I'll let the system work.

Me too, but it sure beats another virus thread, at least for the time being.

 

[Doug M.]

As a realistic matter, I am never unarmed. Period. I almost never go anywhere if I cannot be armed there. I am horrified when I read of people who could be armed and chose not to be - it is simply not consistent with anything I know or believe. But: it is for the defense of myself, my wife, my dogs. Period.

Is it possible I would get involved in some other situation? Yes, but very unlikely. Unless the facts are really clear to me (like someone assaulting a cop), I'm going to call 911 and stay back. I came close to intervening in a matter involving an officer being resisted while I was walking the dogs a few years ago, and I would done so if I had not been able to ascertain the officer's well-being from a distance.

While is is clear that neither American cops nor private citizens kill nearly as many violent criminals as they could (and thus by definition should), this event is very unlikely to pass the smell test.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

It appears they pulled out a shotgun and held the man at gunpoint, at which point Arbery attempted to disarm the man attempting the citizen's arrest.

At this time, I believe the guy with the shotgun was forced to fire on the suspect because he was afraid he would be disarmed and shot. I do not think it would have ended this way with anybody dead if Arbery had complied.

I do not think these two should have been prowling for someone just based on security camera footage, but DO NOT be so quick to demonize fellow gun owners. These two men were misguided, sure, but were attempting to be patriots defending their homesteads from a burglar.

It was not handled well, but I DO NOT think these men deserve life, as no malicious intent was involved. He was forced to shoot once the disarm attempt occurred, leading to this outcome.

So, according to the above, all "persons of color" are automatically guilty of something and should be shot for getting "uppity" and daring to jog in the wrong neighborhood. Go look in a mirror.

We do not know what was said, the only credible witness is DEAD. If it was his choice to die fighting instead of on his knees like a slave, I agree.

Geoff
Who thinks it was a pure race murder, the alleged crimes were committed months before the incident, no "hot pursuit."