The FBI S&W Model 13 .357 Magnum M&P

[grcoffman104]

A few other little known facts: The agents had shotguns, but couldn't use them because they were in the backseat along with theirs vests. And it wasn't the M-13 that failed (Platt was killed by a .38 Special FBI load). The 9mm Silvertip was the alleged failure.

Report I read asserted the silvertip round received was a fatal wound "even if received near a operating room with Dr's
Standing by" bad guy was tasked focused, and pumping out blood as he moved.
I remember this as my squad was transitioning from l framed to 3rd gens at that time. Sheriff
Was ex SEAL, held meeting of firearms instructers, we were choosing dept ammo. Ended up with black talons but was a big push to continue silvertips
With this info in mind.

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[kbm6893]

Do I understand correctly ?
1. The model 10 and Model 13 share the same frame except the Model 13 has a cylinder chambered for .357 ?

2. The FBI issued .357 revolvers but the issue ammo was .38spl +P

A friend of mine is a retired FBI agent. He said .357 was available if you wanted it but most carried .38 +P. He told me he carried 4 .38's followed by 2 .357. Said if the first 4 didn't work then he wanted the extra power.

And the model 13 and 10 had the same frame, but it was an it more than just a different cylinder. I believe the 13 received a different beat treatment.

 

[chief38]

The 3" Model 13 is one of Smiths BEST! I've got one in stainless but called the M65.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

One little known fact regarding the Miami shootout is that Mike Platt did all the shooting. Mattix never fired a shot.

Also, both Platt and Mattix were Army veterans, and Platt was a Viet Nam combat veteran and a Ranger.

Regards,

Dave

 

[BAM-BAM]

IIRC the 'standard carry load" was the SWCHP +P .38..... my Dad started carrying it after shooting with an FBI buddy..... In the mid-70s IIRC..... there were boxes of .38s marked something like "LE only" " Police Only".

Shooting them out of Dad's .357 Colt New Service.....well they were soft shooting ..... even as the as then new wiz-bang +P or +P+ "FBI-load"

 

[CQB60]

Although I own a number of modern pistols, these days I mostly AIWB EDC either my 3" SP101 or Model 10 2". I never feel undergunned with these wheel guns...

 

[markeb]

Thought I would share my 13-2 3", not pinned but recessed. I have the original grips serialized to the gun but like the Elk grips with a vintage T grip adapter. Supposedly, the Bucheimer ammo pouch and ammo, 38 Special +P, came from a former agent that I bought from off Gunbroker. I'm liking it a lot.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Thought I would share my 13-2 3", not pinned but recessed. I have the original grips serialized to the gun but like the Elk grips with a vintage T grip adapter.

Sweeeet.....

 

[SuperMan]

I fully agree that the S&W Model 13 & 65 makes ideal SD revolvers. The FBI agents in Miami were up against a hardened killer armed with a Ruger Mini-14. Hopefully, the average CCW will probably never face such a formidable weapon. The gun battle was lost before the first shot was fired. Platt out-performed the FBI on mindset, tactics, weapon and marksmanship.

One little known fact regarding the Miami shootout is that Mike Platt did all the shooting. Mattix never fired a shot.

Would have to respectfully disagree with some of your assertions...

1) Matix fired one round of 12 ga. #6 birdshot into the grill of Grogan and Dove's vehicle in the opening moments of the gunfight. Matix opened the door of his vehicle and after he fired the shot was hit in the right forearm. He then pulled back into the vehicle where he was shot in the face by Supervisor Gordon McNeil.

2) Platt's "marksmanship" was poor to say the least. He fired a minimum of 42 rounds of ammo from his Mini14 and six rounds of .357 Magnum ammo from two different handguns. (He hit no one with a handgun round) His total hits with the Mini14:

1) From a distance of 8' managed to hit Gordon McNeil once in the hand out of multiple shots fired.

2) From a distance of 8' missed Gordon McNeil and hit Ed Mireles in the left forearm as he ran up behind Gordon McNeil.

3) From a distance of about 25' missed his first round at a standing Gordon McNeil but managed to hit him with the second round. Stunned by the round but survived.

4) Shot a standing Ben Grogan from about 10'. Died instantly of his wounds.

5) Shot John Hanlon in the right hand from about 60' and then shot him again as he stepped over his body. Survived his wounds.

6) Shot a kneeling Jerry Dove in the back from about 8' and then again in the back as he stepped over the body. Died after the second shot.

Platt was no marksman..he was just Army trained spray and pray...


John Hanlon also lost his primary handgun also which is why he was shooting a 5-Shot Chief. I've never been able to find out what kind of guns he or Manauizzi had....

I've studied this incident since shortly after it took place...the more questions I ask the more questions I have...


As to the Model 13...that and the 3" 65 are probably the best and simplest combat revolvers ever made...

Bob

 

[walkin' trails]

All of the 13s you all have posted are beautiful. I was with a DOJ entity back in the early 90s and recall it was after the Clinton Admin. had taken over that AG Reno issued an internal mandate that all DOJ (not sure if it actually applied to Treasury also) entities would no longer sell or trade off obsolete or surplussed firearms. I'm not sure how many DOJ agencies actually destroyed them, however. I believe some at Quantico got converted to Simunition-only and used for training. The cylinders were sleeved and the grips were painted orange on the ones I've seen. In addition to the Sim 13s, I've seen some 65s, 2 and 3 inch 10s, and occasionally a 4 inch 19 repurposed.

The FBI required all personally acquired weapons for duty first be shipped to the Academy for Inspection so that may account for some of the factory shipping records. They may have been actual FBI purchased weapons that made it out before the Reno mandate, or they could have been personally acquired.

Nevertheless, it would be nice if the G decided to rescind the Reno mandate.


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[les.b]

I am typing this from my office about 10 miles from Jerry Dove Drive. It runs from I-79 to the FBI facility here in WV.

I use the 1986 shootout as a part of my firearms course. I was going to add that according to the FBI report, Matix did fire at least one shot, firing a 12 gaauge shotgun, striking SA Manauzzi in the neck and back of his head.

Best Regards, Les

 

[SuperMan]

Les... You may want to recheck that. The reports I have is that Platt fired from the front passenger seat of his vehicle with the Mini14 through the open drivers window of his car into the closed passenger window of Manauzzi vehicle as Manauzzi was trying to exit his drives door... He was hit in the back by jacket and glass fragments...(See page 20 of W. French Anderson Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight).

Bob

 

[chief38]

My Dad was an Agent and in his last few years he was issued white box Winchester and Red box Federal L E use only +P+ 90 and 110 grain ammo. He did not care for it so he used 158 grain +P Semi Jacketed SWCHP with S&W markings (actually Fiocchi). Since he was on the Pistol Team and a Senior Supervisor he could carry pretty much anything he wanted. The last 4 years or so he was carrying a M66 2 1/2" RB, a M15 4" and a Baby Chief's (which I now have) as a BUG. Once in a while he also carried a 1911, along with a few other Autos. While undercover he would carry the farthest thing a BG would ever suspect being a Fed's" gun. Sometimes weird stuff like a .380 Ortgies, a Colt M1903, Nickel plated Revolvers, etc. Anything to keep them thinking he was an Agent. Once in a while he DID have a Sub Machine Gun in the trunk (chained to the car chassis). He put in 30 years.

 

[les.b]

Les... You may want to recheck that. The reports I have is that Platt fired from the front passenger seat of his vehicle with the Mini14 through the open drivers window of his car into the closed passenger window of Manauzzi vehicle as Manauzzi was trying to exit his drives door... He was hit in the back by jacket and glass fragments...(See page 20 of W. French Anderson Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight).

Bob

Bob: Believe it or not, I have the French Anderson laying on my desk right now!! Reading it as I type this.... I see what you are referring to, but my post above was based on the initial FBI report cited and linked in post number 4 above, Page 4.

Best Regards, Les

 

[nyeti]

I m a fan. I carried a 3" Model 13 for my first few years in LE as a an off duty and third gun on patrol. Pick a flavor.....

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Platt was no marksman..he was just Army trained spray and pray...Bob

Platt was an Army Ranger, and a combat veteran (Viet Nam). He would have been trained to "break ambush" using a high volume of suppressive fire - aka "violence of action" versus precision fire.

Regards,

Dave

 

[29-1]

Platt was an Army Ranger, and a combat veteran (Viet Nam). He would have been trained to "break ambush" using a high volume of suppressive fire - aka "violence of action" versus precision fire.

Regards,

Dave

If Platt was indeed a Ranger, he was certainly trained beyond the "spray and pray" level, haven't heard that one before. I do know a little bit about Ranger training and operations, and if anything, it resulted in for those few successful graduates above the average 11B shooting skills. Just my two cents here....glad to see this thread took on a life all its' own. I thought it might.
Chuck

 

[les.b]

Well, I don't always, or even usually, trust Wikapedia, but here's what they have to say about these two criminals:

"Michael Lee Platt (February 3, 1954 – April 11, 1986) and William Russell Matix (June 25, 1951 – April 11, 1986) met while serving in the U.S. Army at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Matix first served in the U.S. Marine Corps from 1969 to 1972, working as a cook in the officers' mess, and was later honorably discharged after reaching the rank of Staff Sergeant. In 1973, Matix re-enlisted in the U.S. Army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the Army in 1976. Platt enlisted in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers during the Vietnam War, where he was noted for "High Combat Proficiency". Platt was honorably discharged in 1979."

I'll try to see if I can find any verification or further information. Obviously this is an important element of the equation, as training, background, and experience help bad guys as well as good guys.

Best Regards, Les

 

[Grayfox]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I am the proud owner of a 3" Model 13-4. Its my most frequently carried revolver.

 

[cleans up]

Nothing to add but thanks for the read. I enjoy my model 65, would like to pick up a 13, but the premium $ have kept my money w/ me when I've run across em.