The Mall Defender Revisited

[blues7]

These mass shootings seem to be occurring more frequently and the weapon of choice appears to be semi-auto rifles. we don't seem to have all of the information regarding the Ohio shooting. It appears that a citizen disarmed the shooter's rifle and the shooter began using a handgun.
A rifle was used in Gilroy, CA . Rifles, as we are aware, have more range and power than handguns and can be fired accurately at longer distances. This makes it chancey to try to engage a shooter with a handgun at a distance. 25 yards is a relative distance for a handgun. And self-defense usually around 21 feet. Now in a heavily crowded area? Even locating the attacker firing from a secure cover?

My understanding is that the shooter had a second weapon but only fired the rifle.

 

[BB57]

As far as the average citizen being trained for mass shootings, I'm not sure that's such a great idea.

SWAT teams train long and hard. And there are several team members which respond. The average citizen is usually alone and often outgunned. Such training better be world class and throw in some good luck.

I'm not saying that we should do nothing. But you had better think hard and be prepared.

A few years ago there was some intensive research into mass shootings in the US. Out of 89 shootings, they found that about half resolved before the police arrived. Of those still active when police arrive, about half end with the shooter killing himself. Overall they found that the earlier the police responded the fewer casualties resulted.

In other words, the worst results occurred when the first officers responded just controlled the scene and waited for SWAT to show up, develop a plan and then execute it - maybe 90 minutes after the event started. Remember the Pulse nightclub shooting?

Mass shootings are not hostage situations and waiting for SWAT to arrive is a massive tactical mistake that costs lives. That research finding has resulted in most departments changing policies so that the initial responding officers enter and attempt to take down the shooter. Even if they don't kill him, about half the time it prompts the shooter to kill himself sooner, saving lives.

Now...the downside is that about 1/3 of those initially responding officers are, statistically speaking, going to get shot. It's safe to say that the same probably goes for an armed citizen - although I think the odds are better for an armed citizen who shoots weekly. competes in tactical matches on a regular basis, etc, than they are for the average LEO that only shoots to qualify once or twice a year.

 

[oink]

As far as the average citizen being trained for mass shootings, I'm not sure that's such a great idea.

SWAT teams train long and hard. And there are several team members which respond. The average citizen is usually alone and often outgunned. Such training better be world class and throw in some good luck.

I'm not saying that we should do nothing. But you had better think hard and be prepared.

That post kinda reminds me of the common policy for "mass shootings" before Columbine. "Secure the scene and wait for swat." That policy changed as a result of Columbine. Officers are now taught to respond individually or in pairs if they are on the scene and advance on the shooting. Too many people die waiting on SWAT.

How that applies to the civilian CCW is debatable and a decision you have to make. How you're armed, your training and personal situation, beliefs, etc. obviously all play into the decision making process.

I'm lazier than average and in my opinion usually insufficiently armed. I'm usually armed marginally and just for personal protection only (OK, the wife too). Sometimes I feel guilty as a result.

I fairly recently purchased a Gen 5 G19 MOS and put a red dot and co-witness sights on it and got an appropriate conceal holster. It's more gun than I'm generally comfortable with in my lazy state. A 9mm Shield is generally my go to. But I got it as I do have some semi-official security expectations at my church. My eyes aren't what they used to be and I figured the red dot would help. The recent events caused me to get off my butt and finally put it into service, for the first time today. Seems to work OK. I then continued with it later going out to lunch. I did also qualify with it about a week ago so there's that. No, I don't think I'm John Wayne, at least not any more.

 

[BC38]

...I drove by a car accident several months ago. A man was ejected from his car. He desperately needed medical attention. I pulled over to help. But it was too late. Some low life's standing nearby laughed as they recorded the event on their phones. They bragged about posting the video on some website.

These kind of people don't deserve my help.

Sadly this mindset reflects the problem in our attitudes as a society - and is the root cause of these situations.

Specifically that problem is a total callous disregard for human life. From violent video games where killing others is the way to win, to reveling in violent imagery and gore in movies as "entertainment", to laws and medial practices that allow for simply disposing of any human life that is inconvenient, to placing the welfare of animals and "nature" above that of people, too many have been raised with the notion that human life is cheap and of little value. This attitude permeates every aspect of our entire culture.

Is it any wonder then that we are seeing young people steeped in that culture go over the edge and perpetrate these kinds of wanton, senseless murders?

 

[CB3]

The El Paso Shooting will undoubtedly renew calls to use armed citizens as a first line of defense.

But, no-one is providing mass-shooting training to citizens.

There are many good, thought provoking statements in the OP's post.

There are plenty of training opportunities for citizens, from generalized advice by Homeland Security to local shooting schools. Some are more helpful than others. Here are two:

Suarez International
Active Response Training

They both address the issues raised by the OP, and a lot more. They both offer actual training/shooting courses in addition to their in-depth online discussions.

More than shooting skills, effective analysis, prioritization and decision making are of paramount importance. Handling the back end of being involved in such a rare event is also covered in detail. Many of the same decisions and skills used in any criminal encounter apply.

While every event has unique characteristics, preparation and mindset are still the key elements to involvement in such conflict.

 

[Muss Muggins]

My only, and I mean absolutely only responsibilities are to get me and mine to safety . . .

 

[max503]

Yup. The career cop that taught my CC class said, "be a good witness."

Stuff like this is why effective concealment is so important to me. I don't want somebody accidentally seeing my gun in a crisis situation.
Can you imagine choosing that day to Open Carry at that Walmart?

 

[smoothshooter]

The El Paso Shooting will undoubtedly renew calls to use armed citizens as a first line of defense. It should be noted that according to newscasts, the mall where this tragic shooting took place was a gun free zone, insuring a victim-rich environment.

There are significant issues which need to be ironed out regarding an armed citizenry responding to a shooting. First, is the situation of mistaken identity. What happens when two or more armed citizens who don't know each other respond to a shooting? Is the second armed person you see a responder or is he or she an accomplice? Might he mistake you for a gunman?

If you're shopping with family, how do you avoid drawing fire towards your family? How do you avoid being shot by armed security if present? With multiple people calling 9-1-1, expect nothing short of the cavalry to arrive at any moment armed to the teeth and in the throes of an adrenaline rush. This is not a good time to be seen with a gun in your hand. If you're fortunate enough to neutralize a gunman, do not attempt to disarm him. Maintain cover and wait for the police.

The police will not make any assumptions. They need to secure the scene, silence and control all guns and get treatment for the wounded. Sorting out the good guys from the bad guys will follow. You will get your opportunity to talk but expect to be disarmed, by force if necessary, then cuffed. Remember, it is unlawful to resist a wrongful arrest and getting in the face of the police will not end well for you. Gunmen have tried to escape the police net by pretending to be victims.

I happen to be in favor of an armed citizenry. But, no-one is providing mass-shooting training to citizens. It's up to you to understand what you may be getting yourself into and to also understand how quickly things can go wrong. I will act, if in my judgment, I can do so without being mistaken for a gunman and if no uniformed police are present. I will not join an ongoing gun battle where I'll likely draw fire from another responder.

Food for thought.

The proper course would be to not show your gun or even put your hand on it until you are actually ready to fire.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I'll go when they have a speaker that, as an armed citizen, actually stopped what could have become a mass shooting. Otherwise, everything in your post is pure speculation on somebody's part . . .

There are many good, thought provoking statements in the OP's post.

There are plenty of training opportunities for citizens, from generalized advice by Homeland Security to local shooting schools. Some are more helpful than others. Here are two:

Suarez International
Active Response Training

They both address the issues raised by the OP, and a lot more. They both offer actual training/shooting courses in addition to their in-depth online discussions.

More than shooting skills, effective analysis, prioritization and decision making are of paramount importance. Handling the back end of being involved in such a rare event is also covered in detail. Many of the same decisions and skills used in any criminal encounter apply.

While every event has unique characteristics, preparation and mindset are still the key elements to involvement in such conflict.

 

[keith44spl]

Even those of us that have been trained to respond to an active shooter,
do not know exactly what we would do to an absolute.

We all know or think we know, what we would do.......

But, only time will tell if and when one is tested.

All I know is what I've had to do....and I would not wish that on any one of y'all.


.

 

[The Big D]

Said it before and will say it again...

...I will NOT stand by in the face of danger and assess whether it is my family/friends who are in danger. I will do what I can to address the situation as best I can.

Frankly, I do not care if I am sued. Take your best shot. I am and will always be accountable for my decisions.

Having worked in big cities and having been involved in 'use of gun' situations many times whilst in mufti I am well versed in protocols and know how to comport myself when the cavalry arrives.

Be safe.

 

[CB3]

I'll go when they have a speaker that, as an armed citizen, actually stopped what could have become a mass shooting. Otherwise, everything in your post is pure speculation on somebody's part . . .

Eh, not so much.

LEOs arrive to every one of these events and have experiences they share among themselves. Some who have actually resolved such situations are instructors. That's not pure speculation. Many have specific training that applies directly to civilian participation.

The majority of citizen responders in these situations are lucky to survive rather than being trained and skilled before or after. They may be heroes but only in that they prevailed (often more by luck than skill) in a specific situation with little or no other experience that would better prepare others for different situations.

Law enforcement professionals who participate in these discussions and make a living teaching this stuff are more qualified than your civilian survivor. Their professional life experiences, even if they have not been at a mass shooting, qualify some of them for such instruction to civilians far more than the individual you seem to want to listen to exclusively.

I'll take my training from professionals rather than civilians who may be little more than participants. Most may not either be able to articulate legally what they did or teach effectively. Interesting to listen to, but not training.

I feel this is a wiser course than living in ignorance because of putting unreasonable parameters on learning.

 

[Sistema1927]

Lots of chest thumping going on here.

As I said in another thread, I am not going up against a guy with a rifle using my concealed handgun UNLESS that is my last resort. First, I am looking for a way to safety for me and my family. In that Walmart I would be heading for the back in order to exit at the loading dock.

Failing that, I am hunkering down behind cover, and hoping that I see the killer before he sees me.

At the same time, do you want to be the guy with a gun out when the police respond to a mass shooting?

I saw a news cast with one guy who had a concealed pistol who was just outside the store. He did the prudent thing, and scooped up some frightened children and spirited them off to safety with the help of another citizen.

 

[HardToHandle]

1) My assumption is fratricide is highly likely in these scenarios - my take away is big boy rules if your handgun comes out

2) Female accomplice killed an armed person who intervened in a Las Vegas shooting - my takeaway is don't assume a Mano y Mano fight and be ruthless

3) Salt Lake's Trolley Square Mall shooting had an off duty officer limit the bad guy's freedom of movement (by bullets) while his dispatcher wife gave key details over a cellphone; lesson is focus on shooting while some else handles communication with incoming units

4) Good guy with eight cartridges in his 1911 had to play only defense because he had no reload or spare in Salt Lake; still a hero, but his limited capacity limited his tactical options... takeaway is more is much, much better and a JFrame is best in the past tense (coming from a guy with four J frames)

I agree with the chest thumping assessment. Each situation will be different but I am in it to win it - meaning I want every advantage. More practice and case study review ahead of time gives the mind maps to succeed.

I worked with a guy who worked a large metro department previously. He had a great story about the rather mild manner older cop who kept getting into shootouts in gas stations. His second or third shooting happened when getting coffee one day off duty and a bad guy came in to hold up the store. In plain clothes, he held up in the back of store with a line of sight on the bad guy. The bad guy was focused on getting the store's till emptied and was nervous, so the good guy strode up in his blind spot with his off duty gun extended. He deliberately walked up until just short of contact, as the good guy pulled the trigger less than inch from back of the medulla. The bad guy slumped down, permanently. No challenge, no hands-up language, just a loud noise and a clerk's life saved. Again, play for keeps.

 

[LPD256]

As a civilian, I have mandatory annual active shooter training at my place of employment. All of our employees have to watch a 15 minute video. We work in a gun free zone full of money. I'd just as soon skip the video and be allowed to carry. The company would rather have me run, hide, and then fight with a fire extinguisher apparently.

 

[just plain joe]

Again, I'll try to stay in my lane here. I've been retired for almost two years now. That being said, I still possess that "sheep-dog" mentality. However I now recognize my limitations, the main one being that I no longer have police powers/authority. Nor do I have access to body armor, radio comms, back-up, high-power weaponry and readily apparent means of visual identification to responding officers.

That being said, I have spoken with my wife should we be out in public and the balloon goes up. She knows to follow my commands immediately and without question. If a person or persons is/are robbing a store or is/are involved in a domestic, fight, drug deal, theft, etc., I'm not drawing my two-inch .38, Sig 9 mm, or Springfield Pro and acting under my previous color of authority as a LE officer. If someone starts pistol-wipping/physically abusing those close to me, starts taking wallets, or begins shooting, then my hand is forced. I'll die on my feet, not on my knees.

I took an oath many years ago when sworn into the law-enforcement vocation. While I'm no longer legally bound, I still feel a moral obligation to do what I can to save another's life. For clarification.....life, not property.

I've always believed that at those critical times that define your purpose on God's earth the best thing you can do is the right thing. The next best thing you can do is the wrong thing. The absolute worst thing you can do is nothing.

"A moment's courage or a lifetime of regret. That has always been the choice."

JM2c.

JPJ

 

[CA Escapee]

In November of 2017 a lone shooter walked into a Walmart super store in Thornton, CO. He stood at the front of the store and emptied a magazine and killed three people. Police tracked the shooter down a couple of days later, he avoided a trial and the death penalty by pleading guilty and is in prison.

After the shooting police watched all of the stores' video to see if there were any other shooters. On the video they saw many people draw weapons while taking cover, but no one fired.

As a generalization, it seems that others didn't charge towards the sound of gunfire and withheld fire. They may have been of the mentality that unless they or their loved ones were in danger they weren't going to shoot.

Bill

 

[fredj338]

On another board there is a huge wail of "where were the TX CHL folks".
Even if I had been there, my commission to serve the public ended years ago. I am now a private citizen, retired. There is no expectation that I will run to confront a threat. And that's good, because I will not. Protect my friends and family? Yes, I will. But that may be as simple as getting them to a safe place.

There are younger, more able men and women out there who have taken that commission and carry those responsibilities.

I think the idea is if the shooter is right in front of you, you are adequately armed, trained & skilled, why would you not engage?
No one should draw their ccw & go looking for the bad guy but most of the victims were right in front of the shooter.

 

[Cal44]

My plan is to get the heck out of crime/shooter situations if at all possible. And get my wife out too.

I have no intention to take on a shooter in a gun fight, if I can get away.

If I hear gun fire or see a crime going down, I'm heading the other way -- and call 911 as soon as I can find cover.

I can understand retired police officers having a different view. But I'm not trained at stopping crimes and taking down bad guys.

Now if I see a computer that's acting up, I might try to fix it. That's my field (computer science/engineering).

 

[fredj338]

In November of 2017 a lone shooter walked into a Walmart super store in Thornton, CO. He stood at the front of the store and emptied a magazine and killed three people. Police tracked the shooter down a couple of days later, he avoided a trial and the death penalty by pleading guilty and is in prison.

After the shooting police watched all of the stores' video to see if there were any other shooters. On the video they saw many people draw weapons while taking cover, but no one fired.

As a generalization, it seems that others didn't charge towards the sound of gunfire and withheld fire. They may have been of the mentality that unless they or their loved ones were in danger they weren't going to shoot.

Bill

Or again, untrained & unskilled. There is way more to self protection with a ccw than carrying it. I am not going looking for a fight, but if it comes to me, I want to give myself every chance of winning/surviving. Train, practice, repeat. Carry enough gun.