The mire gets deeper for Boeing

LVSteve

LVSteve

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Boeing may have won the F-47 contract, but yesterday SecDef said the USAF should cancel the E-7 project (E-3 replacement) and today a 787 went in big time in India. One survivor. The video of it going down should tell the experts something, I'm sure. Engine sound was odd to me.

www.bbc.com

Air India crash latest: At least 200 killed in Air India plane crash as one British passenger survives

The plane carrying 242 people, including 169 Indian nationals and 53 Britons, hit a residential area, with some on the ground also feared dead.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
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Boeing has a lot of big orders in the works. Wonder if this will play a role in those. It will be months before the cause of this one is determined. The pilots got out a "Mayday" call. The vid looks like it just didn't get enough lift. Then a little nose down, but too low for much else. There was no audio on the one I saw. May God bless those souls.
 
Sad for sure.

I am certain Boeing will take another hit. Big question is what was the cause and if not on them then maybe not but that will be down the road.

I saw a news report speaking on how this particular airport has had issues with bird strikes and were taking steps to try and alleviate the issue. The reported talked about it being with vultures I think.

Amazing that there was a survivor.
 
326MOD10 said:
Sad for sure.

I am certain Boeing will take another hit. Big question is what was the cause and if not on them then maybe not but that will be down the road.

I saw a news report speaking on how this particular airport has had issues with bird strikes and were taking steps to try and alleviate the issue. The reported talked about it being with vultures I think.

Amazing that there was a survivor.
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One report said that survivor walked away from the wreckage. A bird strike cause seems logical.
 
LVSteve said:
Boeing may have won the F-47 contract, but yesterday SecDef said the USAF should cancel the E-7 project (E-3 replacement) and today a 787 went in big time in India. One survivor. The video of it going down should tell the experts something, I'm sure. Engine sound was odd to me.

www.bbc.com

Air India crash latest: At least 200 killed in Air India plane crash as one British passenger survives

The plane carrying 242 people, including 169 Indian nationals and 53 Britons, hit a residential area, with some on the ground also feared dead.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
The F-47 contract is mainly for design and development, not production. Maybe it’s time to consider a robotic drone air superiority fighter.
The argument swirling around the E-7 is if satellite-based command and control systems wouldn’t be more cost and mission effective than continued use of aircraft-based systems.
 
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madmikeb said:
Looking at video of the crash, this one and another one, are the flaps down? Hard to tell but it doesn't look it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the wings look clean. I don't know how quickly you clean up a 787 on takeoff because I've never been on one. On some heavy aircraft I've been on it seems like the flaps aren't fully retracted until you have a good bit of altitude on, say 4000' AGL.
 
326MOD10 said:
Amazing that there was a survivor.
Click to expand...
The BBC reported that he was in seat 11A. This is the left window seat of the first row behind a door, probably a "pay for extra legroom" seat. I can see how that might increase your chances of survival.
 
LVSteve said:
Yeah, the wings look clean. I don't know how quickly you clean up a 787 on takeoff because I've never been on one. On some heavy aircraft I've been on it seems like the flaps aren't fully retracted until you have a good bit of altitude on, say 4000' AGL.
Click to expand...
Don't know if it is covered in here but here is a video tutorial on takeoff with a 787 by a 787 pilot. It's long and I didn't watch too much as the technical jargon eludes me. I thought it might be interesting for those with the knowledge to understand it.
 
lihpster said:
Don't know if it is covered in here but here is a video tutorial on takeoff with a 787 by a 787 pilot. It's long and I didn't watch too much as the technical jargon eludes me. I thought it might be interesting for those with the knowledge to understand it.
Click to expand...

Lots of things to set incorrectly on that flight sim, and I assume the real kite, too.
 
All the recent engine failures, etc. My opinion is the engine manufacturers have met and exceeded the operational limits of current engine designs. You can only get so much power from a Chevy 427 without expecting it to grenade.
 
After watching the video on performance planning/data input at the panel/page located on the far left of the instrument panel I was struck by the myriad of flap and thrust settings the pilot could select. Some of the outcomes, such as runway used and rate of climb seemed to be based on consideration other than safe operation like engine wear and EMMISSIONS. Also the normal/acceptable rate of climb the 787 achieves with those settings looks very shallow to me, even with both engines running. The performance with one engine out after V1 appears to be minimal with some of the many possible setting the pilot could select. I'm guessing that flap and thrust settings may be directed by company SOP, which might not always be the safest. Then there are multiple points where the pilot could easily input parameters into the system that puts the aircraft right on the edge of the envelope. The critical nature of the take-off roll with power set, V1 (we are flying, regardless), VR (rotate) and V2 etched in stone for safe operation one must wonder if all the numbers were entered correctly. The Performance/Take off device looks like a very handy tool for computing take off numbers but it could allow the pilot to enter some not so safe data.
 
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Retired W4 said:
A normal call out after VR is positive rate (of climb), gear up. The gear is just a lot of drag at that point and they add nothing to safe operation.
Click to expand...
A BBC News analyst wondered if the gear failed to retract on command. With all that automated throttling that is supposed to happen, you have to wonder if the software has a built in "coffin corner" where it assumes when you command gear up that it has actually happened. Hard to imagine the software could be that bad, but then look at the 737 MAX debacle.

The Daily Telegraph newspaper unearthed a video taken on that very plane going to India that day where a passenger demonstrated that none of the cabin electrics were working. Not sure of the significance of this as I've frequently seen the cabin electronics and convenience features switched off for a minute or so during pre-flight. Now, if all that stuff went down in the middle of the London-India flight, that indicates a problem.
 
Whatever the flap settings and even with landing gear being down the airplane had enough lift to climb above ground effect flight which is 2x wingspan altitude.
I wonder if they may have gone into and not recognized the back side of the power curve or reverse command which requires non-intuitive flight control inputs. E.g. to increase altitude, you increase throttle and to increase speed you trim nose down.
There are reports of a mayday call before the crash too
 
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