The Russians have gone in

[Beemerguy53]

Specific incidents in which Putin's agenda was facilitated by America and the West:

Proxy invasion of South Ossetia, 2008
'Annexation' of Crimea, 2014
Russian-facilitated insurrection in Donetsk and the Donbass, 2014 to date
Abandonment of the US Kobani (Syria) airbase to the Russians in Syria, 2019.

We've (America, the EU, and the UN) been watching Putin do this stuff for years, and we've consistently failed to take action. I've never understood it...all we've done is embolden him.

When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in the summer of 1990, and declared it to be a province of Iraq, the world community reacted immediately. The UN demanded he withdraw, and the United States organized and led a coalition that sent troops and materiel to the Middle East. When we had sufficient force in the region, we delivered an ultimatum, and then invaded and expelled the Iraqis from Kuwait.

The only differences I can see between Iraq in 1990 and Russia today are that Saddam didn't have nukes, and he didn't have useful idiots in the West running interference for him...

 

[UncleEd]

This thread has gone on as long
or longer than most and bless
this forum for allowing it.

But as I see it, you've got to choose
between democracy with all its flaws,
all its mistakes, all its missteps and
foolish wars, all its less than stellar
leaders or fractured politics or you
prefer an absolute system
embodied in Vladimir Putin who
ultimately represents the past with
Stalin, Hitler, and all their previous
know-it-all unrestrained predecessors.

If you see shades of gray, present time
or historical precedents, in this conflict,
I grieve.

Choose, flawed freedom that encompasses
so many human failings and frailties or evil.

 

[oldbrownhat]

...Choose, flawed freedom that encompasses so many human failings and frailties or evil.

'Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…' Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947​

 

[Beemerguy53]

...Vladimir Putin...ultimately represents the past with Stalin, Hitler, and all their previous...unrestrained predecessors.

If you see shades of gray, present time or historical precedents, in this conflict, I grieve.

Choose, flawed freedom that encompasses so many human failings and frailties or evil.

Well-said, Uncle Ed, and thank you for pointing out the stark clarity of the choices here. No, there are no shades of grey here, none at all.

Invading another nation that hasn't attacked you is evil...period.

Driving civilians from their homes is evil...period.

Kidnapping the citizens of another nation and spiriting them away is evil...period.

Murdering non-combatants is evil...period.

Shelling hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, nursing homes, and other non-military structures is evil...period.

Needlessly sacrificing your own troops, sending them to their deaths, is evil...period.

Last week, a reporter in Ukraine interviewed an American who'd gone there to assist in any way he could, and was working at a hospital. The reporter asked the young man why he was there, and he immediately replied that this is the biggest and clearest fight for freedom in his lifetime, and he couldn't stand by and not help. He gets it...would that others did as well.

 

[ladder13]

Europe still buying Russian energy? A friend asked me to ask.

Contributing to evil makes you evil, imo.

 

[biku324]

Exclude the UK (sanctioned Russian oil), Lithuania & Ireland (advocating that the EU sanction Russian oil) from the 'evil' category.

 

[ladder13]

Exclude the UK (sanctioned Russian oil), Lithuania & Ireland (advocating that the EU sanction Russian oil) from the 'evil' category.

Most of Europe are hypocrites.

 

[smithra_66]

We've (America, the EU, and the UN) been watching Putin do this stuff for years, and we've consistently failed to take action. I've never understood it...all we've done is embolden him.

When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in the summer of 1990, and declared it to be a province of Iraq, the world community reacted immediately. The UN demanded he withdraw, and the United States organized and led a coalition that sent troops and materiel to the Middle East. When we had sufficient force in the region, we delivered an ultimatum, and then invaded and expelled the Iraqis from Kuwait.

The only differences I can see between Iraq in 1990 and Russia today are that Saddam didn't have nukes, and he didn't have useful idiots in the West running interference for him...

So you want war with Russia because they took some backward, corrupt, former USSR territory. I see.

What ever happened to "we can't be the world's policemen?" Remember how anti-Bush people used to say that almost on command about 10 or 15 years ago?

 

[ladder13]

 

[UncleEd]

Europe still buying Russian energy? A friend asked me to ask.

Contributing to evil makes you evil, imo.

Truly not ideal but still the
continuing to buy energy from
Russia is actually bolstering
the well-being of NATO, the
using of the "status quo" to
cripple Moscow.

Putin thinks time is on his
side or he would cut off
Europe now even though
NATO has experienced a
rebirth in will and strength.

The dependency on Russian
energy will wane as other
sources come back into play.
Those sources will be the
Middle East, Latin America
and the U.S. as no immediate
economic policy for those areas
is set in stone.

In the meantime Russia will
experience growing hardships
as the economic sanctions
have more and more effect.
Its oil, economically speaking,
is its last card to play.

 

[UncleEd]

So you want war with Russia because they took some backward, corrupt, former USSR territory. I see.

What ever happened to "we can't be the world's policemen?" Remember how anti-Bush people used to say that almost on command about 10 or 15 years ago?

Ukraine is hardly backward and
it has been conducting reforms.
The Ukrainians neither love nor
do they see themselves as
part of a Russian federation.

And bringing up policies from
20 years ago does not justify or
conjure up an equivalency
for the crisis in eastern Europe.

 

[tlawler]

So you want war with Russia because they took some backward, corrupt, former USSR territory?

That's just ignorance.

 

[oldbrownhat]

Ukraine is hardly backward and
it has been conducting reforms.
The Ukrainians neither love nor
do they see themselves as
part of a Russian federation....

Well said. Ukraine has certainly had its problems but at least it is trying to improve and crawl out of the hole it's been in, which is more than can be said for Russia. (And, from what I have read about the power structure in Russia, it is questionable how it could "improve" even if Putin were gone. The country seems ungovernable by any standard we would recognize. Perhaps the mythical "benevolent dictator", if one could be found.)

And most certainly no one wants a nuclear war, no matter how noble the cause In George M. Cohan's words, it wouldn't just be [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqx9ugnenVk"]Over There[/ame] it would be all over here as well.

 

[Kevin J.]

The world may see it this way. I think when Putin looks at his reflection he sees Stalin.

 

[ladder13]

Activists protest tanker as Russian oil imports flow into US ahead of ban | Greenpeace | The Guardian

 

[ladder13]

I wouldn't give a pleading drunk who says he's going to dry out a drink, nor give a bag of dope to a junkie promising it was his last shot.

Europeans are hypocrites.

 

[Onomea]

An article from the NYT on the Ukrainian air force's ongoing efforts and the failure of the Russians to establish air supremacy to date:

How Ukraine's Outgunned Air Force Is Fighting Back Against Russian Jets - The New York Times

 

[UncleEd]

I wouldn't give a pleading drunk who says he's going to dry out a drink, nor give a bag of dope to a junkie promising it was his last shot.

Europeans are hypocrites.

Poor and non-related analogy.

As I read the story, Russia already
has the money for the oil.

The April 22 cutoff in the U.S. is to
allow the contracts to be fulfilled.

Or do you disagree?

 

[bigwheelzip]

A good story of a small village that blunted the Russian advance.

BBC News - Ukraine: The small town which managed to block Russia's big plans
Ukraine: The small town which managed to block Russia'''s big plans - BBC News

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

 

[Rustyt1953]

Arlo, I don't have a subscription to the NYT so I hit the paywall.

I decided to try it again anyway and when I opened the link I saw this: "You have access to this article thanks to someone you know."

Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!