The Russians have gone in

[LVSteve]

Rudi, with respect, what is the source for your statement that old photos and photoshop have been used during the news coverage of Russia's attack on Ukraine?

I'm certain Rudi didn't mean all of them. For sure, several videos and pictures have been debunked by the like of the BBC, France24, DW and other news sources who have taken the time to look. Much of the fake stuff comes out of Syria, one infamous incident with a little girl and a soldier comes from Israel, and some of the supposed air battle stuff is believed to have been created using the "build your own scenario" feature in a high end dogfight video game.

 

[LCC]

anyone remember these words...
"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy, I was able to get a sense of his soul."
Ever since than, we have continually weakened our NATO alliance, giving Putin more and more elbow room, and as a result now women and children are being slaughtered. Putin's actions, however, have done nothing but re-strengthen the NATO alliance, which is the absolute worse outcome for Putin.

And to clarify, Ukraine was never originally a part of the USSR, it was an independent region from which the Cossacks originated from long before there was a USSR, and wasn't invaded and taken over by the early Russian Empire until the late 1700's by Catherine the Great.

 

[smithman 10]

I like the story

A good story of a small village that blunted the Russian advance.

BBC News - Ukraine: The small town which managed to block Russia's big plans
Ukraine: The small town which managed to block Russia'''s big plans - BBC News

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

And I like and trust the BBC's reporting as much as any news outfit. It almost sounds too good to be true. But then again, I wasn't there so what do I know?

Except I do believe the warning that the Russians will surely be back. Bridges can be repaired after all.

Anyway, thanks for the link. May every word be true and when the Russians come back I pray they will get their butts kicked even worse.

Got my fingers crossed that these brave people survive and see the end of this tragic war.

 

[UncleEd]

anyone remember these words...
"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy, I was able to get a sense of his soul.".

I remember and thinking that's
got to be one of the most
embarrassing things a U.S.
president had ever said.

Alhough since then I believe
it has been topped.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Watching reports of the Ukrainians' resistance to Putin's invasion, and how fiercely they are fighting for their nation, reminds me of these sentences from the Battle of the Bulge Memorial outside of Bastogne, Belgium...

"The uniformed ranks of the United States fought for this soil...as if had been their homeland. The Belgian civilians, unarmed, refused to abandon it in face of the oncoming enemy..."

Putin has forgotten a key lesson from history...

 

[ladder13]

No politics here, nah.

 

[Kevin J.]

Maybe some pruning is on the way ^ but hopefully the thread is kept open. Honestly this has been some of the most thoughtful respective discussion on this terrible, and possibility divisive topic. With that said open and respectful conversation is very important for both as an understanding of alternative view points, but also as a channel to deal with personal emotions on some of the horrific things we are witnessing.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Maybe some pruning is on the way ^ but hopefully the thread is kept open. Honestly this has been some of the most thoughtful respective discussion on this terrible, and possibility divisive topic. With that said open and respectful conversation is very important for both as an understanding of alternative view points, but also as a channel to deal with personal emotions on some of the horrific things we are witnessing.

I couldn't agree more. There are a lot of Americans who are very upset by what Putin is doing to Ukraine, but on other social media platforms it isn't possible to have a rational discussion about it because those sites aren't set up for ongoing discussions; there are no rules imposing civil discourse; and there are Russian trolls there stirring up trouble.

For the most part, the people on this thread have contributed a lot of informed opinions, and supplemented their views with links to a wealth of diverse opinions and interesting information.

We have a valuable outlet here. I appreciate both the way our members (well, most of them ) are staying within the rules, and the cooperation and assistance of the moderators in keeping us on track.

 

[Rudi]

Rudi, with respect, what is the source for your statement that old photos and photoshop have been used during the news coverage of Russia's attack on Ukraine?

A pic from post # 382 of this thread. A photoshopped pic of Zelinsky. Still don't know if the girl from the hospital pic is a crisis actor. And the "Ghost of Kiev", some of the video is from a video game. Lots to sort through. And as I keep saying, we can't discus some major components of what is going on.

 

[Absalom]

As democratic countries facing a pseudo-democratic autocrat like Putin, we have to deal with certain disadvantages.

That's no different than the 1930s. In hindsight it appears obvious how the decisions made back then let Hitler get away with more and more until the moment of truth in 1939. With hindsight it would have been so easy to stop him. Except that once you delve into the details, a lot of that clarity disappears.

Today isn't any different. Just look at the US. Folks keep talking about what "we" failed to do to stop Putin. But who are or were "we", and what were we the voters concerned about?

I don't think it's political or partisan to say that during the two decades of his steady rise to power, Putin faced US Presidents who were not elected for either their foreign policy expertise or their military background. That's just not what "we the people" are interested in. Consequently, all of them failed to adequately address major challenges in that area.

And think back to WW II. The British weren't ready for Churchill as PM until Hitler was well on the rampage. And Americans didn't really snap out of their isolationist funk until the Japanese wake-up call at Pearl Harbor.

Democratically elected leaders will always play catch-up when a determined autocrat stalks the land. So don't be too harsh on Western leaders who didn't threaten Putin with war over South Ossetia years ago. If you want to know whose fault that largely is, look in the mirror (figuratively speaking).

 

[UncleEd]

The virtue of a democracy
such as the US is the
elected leaders have limits
to their power or at least
ideally do.

Then the people want
the nation's problems
fixed yesterday. They
urge executive orders,
wish for a circumvention
of legislators and some
winking at the courts.
But in the process DON'T
be a dictator.

 

[Onomea]

A look at tension over the stalled war effort within Russian leadership:

As Russia Stalls in Ukraine, Dissent Brews Over Putin's Leadership - The New York Times

 

[dockmurgw]

Poor and non-related analogy.

As I read the story, Russia already
has the money for the oil.

The April 22 cutoff in the U.S. is to
allow the contracts to be fulfilled.

Or do you disagree?

I heard a discussion on this very subject recently, a fuel dealers association head explaining that the oil delivery's now have already been paid for. To refuse delivery on product that has already been paid for would be a gift to putin, and one of the dumbest things that could be done.

 

[smithra_66]

Ukraine is hardly backward and
it has been conducting reforms.
The Ukrainians neither love nor
do they see themselves as
part of a Russian federation.

And bringing up policies from
20 years ago does not justify or
conjure up an equivalency
for the crisis in eastern Europe.

So again, you want war with Russia because of their local territory dispute?

If we were attacked by China, would Ukraine jump in?

What's your ask and why would we want war with Russia over THIS issue?

 

[smithra_66]

That's just ignorance.

Again, can any of you guys answer my question?

DO YOU WANT WAR WITH RUSSIA OVER THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?

Can any of you answer, instead of just standing on your soapboxes and virtue signaling? You all have conveniently avoided it.

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

 

[tlawler]

Again, can any of you guys answer my question?

DO YOU WANT WAR WITH RUSSIA OVER THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?

Can any of you answer, instead of just standing on your soapboxes and virtue signaling? You all have conveniently avoided it.

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

No one ever wants war, except hegemonic dictators. I think it's a done deal; it will happen sooner or later. Putin is incrementally upping the ante to see how far we can be pushed before we jump in with boots. If we end up waiting for a black swan moment like Pearl Harbor, it may be too late. We must learn to be taught by history. My only son is in Navy OCS right now and it scares the heck out of me, but there is a right side and a wrong side, and we are on the right side. So no, I certainly don't "want" war.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Read an article about what the Russian generals were doing at the front lines, which put them in a position to be killed.
It said the attacking Russian forces are a mixture of regular army and poorly trained and equipped conscripts. The conscripts apparently are not following orders, which has brought the generals and other higher officers up front to try and address the problems.

 

[UncleEd]

uesti

Want war with Russia? No

But for all practical purposes
we are now in a war with
Russia. To be sure, it's
now a "limited" one.

It is not a "local territorial
dispute." It's about the
future of the eastern
(Slavic) nations of Europe.
And also whether western
Europe can stand.

The fact that NATO has so
quickly been revitalized
should give the answer
about a willingness to
face a war.

NATO of course exists to
avoid a war by containing
Russian imperialism.

Questions back: Should
the West allow Mr. Putin
to do whatever he wants?
And at what point should
the West, i.e. the US and
NATO draw a "red line?"

Actually that "red line"
already exists with Article
5 of the NATO charter.

 

[Beemerguy53]

So again, you want war with Russia because of their local territory dispute?

If we were attacked by China, would Ukraine jump in?

What's your ask and why would we want war with Russia over THIS issue?

First and foremost, Ukraine's sovereignty is a matter of treaty and international law, and you surely know that; your calling Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine a "territorial dispute" is disingenuous at best, and deliberately propagandistic at worst.

A key tenet of international law is that nations cannot simply invade and conquer each other. We either subscribe to that or we don't.

No, I don't want war with Russia...but Russia clearly wants war with the West. And let's face it, we ARE at war with them...we're just not yet in the shooting phase. They have interfered in our society and our politics for years, and they have undertaken cyber-security attacks against us. We and other nations in the West have taken actions to cripple their economy, supply Ukraine with weapons, and bring pressure against them on behalf of the Ukrainians.

I just hope we can win this war with as little loss of life as possible.

 

[smithman 10]

None of our fellow posters WANT war, I would wager

To smithra_66

But it may happen or become necessary should Russia miscalculate and attack a NATO country.

I might ask you, do you want a modern day precedent to be set that a major European nation may be invaded and partially occupied by another European power?

Seems that might be what's called a bad thing, I'm sure you would agree.