The Russians have gone in

[smithman 10]

News flash

Just saw on the BBC TV news show that Nestle's has pulled kitkat bars out of Russia.

It's getting serious for those Russkies now - let them take that!

 

[16thVACav]

Again, can any of you guys answer my question?

DO YOU WANT WAR WITH RUSSIA OVER THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?

Can any of you answer, instead of just standing on your soapboxes and virtue signaling? You all have conveniently avoided it.

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Not really a choice, since we've been at war with Russia since 1945.

 

[Rustyt1953]

Just saw on the BBC TV news show that Nestle's has pulled kitkat bars out of Russia.

Give me a break

 

[Protocall_Design]

Just saw on the BBC TV news show that Nestle's has pulled kitkat bars out of Russia.

It's getting serious for those Russkies now - let them take that!

Good! More for US!

 

[CH4]

Nothing goes better with borscht and warm vodka than a Kit-Kat!

 

[oldbrownhat]

Give me a break

Well, "You deserve a break today..." and you can still get one, komrade!

McDonald's is among major fast-food chains that still have doors open in Russia because franchisees refuse to close

"...Pizza chain Papa John's is dealing with a similar issue. One of its franchisees who runs 190 Papa Johns's locations is refusing to halt operations at his restaurants. According to The New York Times, he even plans to open 20 to 40 more locations. .."​

I suspect a back-office plot to convert the cooking grease into fuel for the tanks

 

[PALADIN85020]

Not really a choice, since we've been at war with Russia since 1945.

Agree. More and more, I realize that Patton was right.

John

 

[smithra_66]

No one ever wants war, except hegemonic dictators. I think it's a done deal; it will happen sooner or later. Putin is incrementally upping the ante to see how far we can be pushed before we jump in with boots. If we end up waiting for a black swan moment like Pearl Harbor, it may be too late. We must learn to be taught by history. My only son is in Navy OCS right now and it scares the heck out of me, but there is a right side and a wrong side, and we are on the right side. So no, I certainly don't "want" war.

So, if I understand you correctly, you would do exactly what we're doing now. NOTHING with regards to military force.

Correct?

 

[biku324]

Again, can any of you guys answer my question?

DO YOU WANT WAR WITH RUSSIA OVER THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?

Can any of you answer, instead of just standing on your soapboxes and virtue signaling? You all have conveniently avoided it.

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

No one rational wants war. The problem is that not all players on the world stage are acting rationally - I'm talking about Putin. He used Russian troops without their uniforms to invade and hold Georgia, occupying Sourth Ossetia (2008). He next sent his 'little green men' into Ukraine in 2014, and occupied Crimea (not annexed - there is no real world recognition of that occupation as annexation in a legal sense), then sent Russian troops and mercenaries into Syria in 2018 to maintain his alliance with today's bloodiest dictator and to keep Syrian rebels from creating a new government or allying with ISIS.

In none of these cases has he been seriously opposed by the West, either us, NATO, or the EU. In fact, the most immediate threat this minute to the CVN-75 carrier battle group off Split, Croatia is the airbase at Kobani, Syria (40 minutes flight time away, less than 10 minutes by Kinzhal hypersonic missile) we gave to the Russians by abandoning it as they moved in (2019).

We and the West have tried diplomatic measures, mild sanctions, but none of these have deterred Putin - in fact, the weak response clearly has encouraged his quest to rebuild the old geographic area of the USSR.

So now he has invaded a soveriegn country that borders on NATO countries with 150,000 Russian troops (no more pretending it isn't him) and is killing people by the thousand while laying waste to Ukrainian infrastructure. He's threatened NATO if they provide some types of lethal aid to Ukraininans.

In these circumstances, YES; I do believe we should risk war with Russia, and continue to push them as hard as we can to bleed them as much as possible. Better now, while Putin is weakened by the courageous Ukrainians and Russian war protestors inside Russia, than when he takes Ukraine and is better able to try the Baltic states and Eastern Europe next.

I've talked with length about this with my only grandson, who will be 18 in August. If he decides to join our military and go with it to confront the modern face of national evil, I will support him in every possible way.

Isolation hasn't been possible since our Civil War - not really.

 

[smithra_66]

To smithra_66

But it may happen or become necessary should Russia miscalculate and attack a NATO country.

I might ask you, do you want a modern day precedent to be set that a major European nation may be invaded and partially occupied by another European power?

Seems that might be what's called a bad thing, I'm sure you would agree.

So you say send US Troops to Ukraine to fight Russia and defend Ukraine's border? Correct? You'd give the order today?

Why can't you guys just come out and clearly state what you'd do?

 

[smithra_66]

No one rational wants war. The problem is that not all players on the world stage are acting rationally - I'm talking about Putin. He used Russian troops without their uniforms to invade and hold Georgia, occupying Sourth Ossetia (2008). He next sent his 'little green men' into Ukraine in 2014, and occupied (not annexed - there is no real world recognition of that occupation as annexation in a legal sense), then sent Russian troops and mercenaries into Syria in 2018 to maintain his alliance with today's bloodiest dictator and to keep Syrian rebels from creating a new government or allying with ISIS.

In none of these cases has he been seriously opposed by the West, either us, NATO, or the EU. In fact, the most immediate threat this minute to the CVN-75 carrier battle group off Split, Croatiais the airbase at Kobani, Syria (40 minutes flight time away) we gave to the Russians by abandoning it as they moved in (2019).

We and the West have tried diplomatic measures, mild sanctions, but none of these have deterred Putin - in fact, the weak response clearly has encouraged his quest to rebuild the old geographic area of the USSR.

So now he has invaded a soveriegn country that borders on NATO countries with 150,000 Russian troops (no more pretending it isn't him) and is killing people by the thousand while laying waste to Ukrainian infrastructure. He's threatened NATO if they provide some types of lethal aid to Ukraininans.

In these circumstances, YES; I do believe we should risk war with Russia, and continue to push them as hard as we can to bleed them as much as possible. Better now, while Putin is weakened by the courageous Ukrainians and Russian war protestors inside Russia, than when he takes Ukraine and is better able to try the Baltic states and Eastern Europe next.

I've talked with length about this with my only grandson, who will be 18 in August. If he decides to join our military and go with it to confront the modern face of national evil, I will support him in every possible way.

Isolation hasn't been possible since our Civil War - not really.

Sooooo, what would you do today? You sound like you still are not going to give the order to go to war with Russia....therefore you agree with ME.

 

[smithra_66]

Not really a choice, since we've been at war with Russia since 1945.

Not a shooting war.

 

[smithra_66]

Want war with Russia? No

But for all practical purposes
we are now in a war with
Russia. To be sure, it's
now a "limited" one.

It is not a "local territorial
dispute." It's about the
future of the eastern
(Slavic) nations of Europe.
And also whether western
Europe can stand.

The fact that NATO has so
quickly been revitalized
should give the answer
about a willingness to
face a war.

NATO of course exists to
avoid a war by containing
Russian imperialism.

Questions back: Should
the West allow Mr. Putin
to do whatever he wants?
And at what point should
the West, i.e. the US and
NATO draw a "red line?"

Actually that "red line"
already exists with Article
5 of the NATO charter.

Errr a ... we are NOT at war with Russia. We are sanctioning them and sending arms through proxies. We do that all the time in all sorts of places in the world.

Why can't you just come out and state what you would do? You seem hesitant too, to give the order to move US forces, fighter planes, etc. and start engaging Russian targets DIRECTLY.

You also seem to agree with ME. (While talking tough).

 

[margethatcher]

deep thought

What's wrong with Ukraine wanting to be in NATO? We don't base our foreign policy on what dictators want to do. Should we just say "sorry, you can't join the free, civilized world because you're too close to Russia?"

After Iraq and Afganistan, I now pull for whatever bogeyman the new world order tells me to hate.

 

[smithra_66]

First and foremost, Ukraine's sovereignty is a matter of treaty and international law, and you surely know that; your calling Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine a "territorial dispute" is disingenuous at best, and deliberately propagandistic at worst.

A key tenet of international law is that nations cannot simply invade and conquer each other. We either subscribe to that or we don't.

No, I don't want war with Russia...but Russia clearly wants war with the West. And let's face it, we ARE at war with them...we're just not yet in the shooting phase. They have interfered in our society and our politics for years, and they have undertaken cyber-security attacks against us. We and other nations in the West have taken actions to cripple their economy, supply Ukraine with weapons, and bring pressure against them on behalf of the Ukrainians.

I just hope we can win this war with as little loss of life as possible.

No one in the free world is doing a thing about it militarily though. That shows how much your "international law" means jack.

Repeat: NATO is not helping Ukraine with their militaries. They are taking my advice, not yours.

 

[biku324]

Sooooo, what would you do today? You sound like you still are not going to give the order to go to war with Russia....therefore you agree with ME.

Ah, that's what this is about!

Never mind.

Simplistic solutions to complex problems lead only to more complex problems.

 

[smithra_66]

Ah, that's what this is about!

Never mind.

That's the point of this debate. You guys all talk tough and claim that I'm off base for asking why exactly we'd bog ourselves down in this stuff AGAIN.

Then, you simply agree with me because none of you will say that we should engage militarily. Your arguments are contradictory.

 

[biku324]

That's the point of this debate. You guys all talk tough and claim that I'm off base for asking why exactly we'd bog ourselves down in this stuff AGAIN.

Then, you simply agree with me because none of you will say that we should engage militarily. Your arguments are contradictory.

One more time, you are making a simplistic argument. If your only proposal is war today or nothing, sorry - I remove you from command. The world and this situation is complex; our response should be as well.

 

[cmj8591]

Again, can any of you guys answer my question?

DO YOU WANT WAR WITH RUSSIA OVER THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?

Can any of you answer, instead of just standing on your soapboxes and virtue signaling? You all have conveniently avoided it.

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Russia threatening the sovereignty of a Democratic Europe is a threat to our way of life also. Yes, Ukraine is worth fighting Russia for.

 

[smithra_66]

One more time, you are making a simplistic argument. If your only proposal is war today or nothing, sorry - i remove you from command. The world and this situation is complex; our response should be as well.

So you wouldn't give the order to invade Russia militarily right now.

Just like me.

What am I missing?