The Safety Situation

[VThillman]

My new Shield 45 is a keeper. Among other characteristics I like the short trigger travel (after take-up). Almost as short as my Witness 45 from full cock. Makes me suspect that the striker is at or near the equivalent of full cock. Which makes me wonder about the 'safeness' of the no-thumb-safety version of the Shield. I know approximately ziltch about the mechanics of striker-fired guns, even though this is the 3rd one I've owned, but I have noticed that the Springfield XD series of striker-fired guns has a thumb and/or grip safety, purportedly because the striker is at or near 'full-cocked' position after the slide has cycled.

What's up with this?

 

[Ray1970]

Other than Glock I believe just about every other striker fired handgun I've seen pretty much has the striker fully "cocked".

In a nutshell, what keeps most striker fired handguns safe to carry is the striker block (some people will call it the firing pin safety or firing pin block). The trigger has to be pulled in order to disengage this safety. If the trigger isn't pulled rearward the block will not let the striker come forward to hit the primer.

That's essentially it in a nutshell.

 

[Smakmauz]

I think it's also why you see most of the striker fired guns coming from the factory with 5-6lb trigger weights. It's a compromise between the heavy 11-12lb DA triggers and super light 2-3lb SA. I think there is a slight bit more engagement between the sear and striker to pull through than on DA/SA guns in SA mode. It's not much but it makes enough of a difference to make people more comfortable carrying without a manual safety.

I've never seen anyone carrying a 1911 cocked and NOT locked for this reason.

 

[Smoke]

Other than Glock I believe just about every other striker fired handgun I've seen pretty much has the striker fully "cocked".

No.

I wouldn't want to say the striker is "this much" cocked but it's not fully cocked. You're not walking around with a gun in condition zero.

The striker isn't fully cocked and it can't go forward until it is.

 

[bigwheelzip]

I know approximately ziltch about the mechanics of striker-fired guns...
What's up with this?

Your not imagining things. With a round in the chamber, the firearm is pre-cocked to a certain degree. The trigger pull generally splits the difference between DA and SA.
Certain states and law enforcement agencies require versions modified with heavier triggers installed.

For CC, the compact Walther P99C AS is one DA/SA striker design that I'm aware of with a decocker and 9lb first pull.

 

[VThillman]

by Smoke: "The striker isn't fully cocked and it can't go forward until it is."

Thanks, Smoke. That is probably the 'logical justification', when coupled with the hinged trigger, for considering the otherwise safety-less Shield safe to carry with a round in the chamber.

I turned 80 today, but that condition made me uneasy back when I was 79.

Thanks for the info, folks.

 

[Arik]

XD adds safeties so you will buy it on the basis that it's "safer". In reality they're all safe and they all need to have the trigger pulled in order to fire.

They are not safety less. Their safeties are just hidden and automatically disengage when pulling the trigger.

Good video explaining how a Glock works. I know it's not a Shield but to give you an idea.....
Lone Wolf HIW: Firing Cycle Explained for Glock - YouTube

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[bigwheelzip]

I turned 80 today...

Happy birthday.

 

[VThillman]

XD adds safeties so you will buy it on the basis that it's "safer". In reality they're all safe and they all need to have the trigger pulled in order to fire.

They are not safety less. Their safeties are just hidden and automatically disengage when pulling the trigger.

Good video explaining how a Glock works. I know it's not a Shield but to give you an idea.....
Lone Wolf HIW: Firing Cycle Explained for Glock - YouTube

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

They are not all equally safe. When the thumb safety on my Shield is engaged, the gun will not fire when pressure is applied to the lower part of the trigger. Note that I didn't type 'when the trigger is pulled'. You may consider the thumb safety to be the equivalent of a baby's pacifier, but some of us are 'worriers'. Even more so given the Glock-leg stories, but worried without them.

Probably why the Shield comes both ways.

 

[Arik]

A "Glock leg" will happen with a Shield if one doesn't use the thumb safety and keeps his finger on the trigger. All these safeties only work if YOU use them. Glock leg won't happen if the finger is not on the trigger..... which it shouldn't be in the first place. If you look on YouTube there's a guy who gave himself a Glock leg with a 1911! A gun with TWO safeties!!!!

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[PALADIN85020]

A "Glock leg" will happen with a Shield if one doesn't use the thumb safety and keeps his finger on the trigger. All these safeties only work if YOU use them. Glock leg won't happen if the finger is not on the trigger..... which it shouldn't be in the first place. If you look on YouTube there's a guy who gave himself a Glock leg with a 1911! A gun with TWO safeties!!!!

Never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot.

John

 

[Smakmauz]

No.

I wouldn't want to say the striker is "this much" cocked but it's not fully cocked. You're not walking around with a gun in condition zero.

The striker isn't fully cocked and it can't go forward until it is.

Actually, yes.

The strikers on all the M&P series are in fact about 98% cocked. The trigger pull only moves the striker back a tiny amount. If there was no striker safety block in the gun and the striker dropped, there would be sufficient energy to ignight most primers. The trigger pull deactivates the striker block in in its first 'stage and then realeases the striker.

This one reason why it's extremely important to practice good trigger control and interference awareness when holstering.

With glock, the striker is only 60-70% cocked so it probably wouldn't have enough energy to ignight if that striker was to bypass the safety but I'm not 100% sure on that. This is why glock has that longer trigger pull with that hefty snap at the end.

 

[Smakmauz]

A "Glock leg" will happen with a Shield if one doesn't use the thumb safety and keeps his finger on the trigger. All these safeties only work if YOU use them. Glock leg won't happen if the finger is not on the trigger..... which it shouldn't be in the first place. If you look on YouTube there's a guy who gave himself a Glock leg with a 1911! A gun with TWO safeties!!!!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I've seen that guy..."I JUST SHOT MYSELF!!"

At least he owned up to being an idiot. Not only that but he shared it on the internet ...on purpose!

He actually shot himself on the draw stroke but the principle is the same. Keep your friggin finger off that trigger!

 

[kbm6893]

I've seen that guy..."I JUST SHOT MYSELF!!"

At least he owned up to being an idiot. Not only that but he shared it on the internet ...on purpose!

He actually shot himself on the draw stroke but the principle is the same. Keep your friggin finger off that trigger!

Yeah. Then he "reverted to his training and called his mother". He was also trying to
Practice a quick draw. Monumental idiot all around.

 

[Neumann]

As noted above, the striker is blocked until the trigger is pulled, taking up the slack. The tab in the trigger is to improve safety if the weapon is dropped. There is a clear danger if something gets inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered, for example a shirttail.

A thumb safety locks the sear or transfer bar, preventing discharge if the trigger is pulled, accidentally or otherwise. The grip safety on a Springfield blocks the trigger, and makes holstering safer IMO, without complicating the manual of arms.

Safeties on a standard 1911 work as above. Certain versions have a positive firing pin block, operated by the trigger or the grip safety. This prevents discharge even if the firearm is dropped on the hammer, breaking the sear or notch. I specifically bought a 1911 with the grip safety FP block. It has no effect on the reliability nor the trigger pull.

 

[Smoke]

Actually, yes.

The strikers on all the M&P series are in fact about 98% cocked. The trigger pull only moves the striker back a tiny amount. If there was no striker safety block in the gun and the striker dropped, there would be sufficient energy to ignight most primers. The trigger pull deactivates the striker block in in its first 'stage and then realeases the striker.

This one reason why it's extremely important to practice good trigger control and interference awareness when holstering.

With glock, the striker is only 60-70% cocked so it probably wouldn't have enough energy to ignight if that striker was to bypass the safety but I'm not 100% sure on that. This is why glock has that longer trigger pull with that hefty snap at the end.

I think it's a question of semantics but my understanding is that (barring a genuine malfunction) the striker can't go forward until it's full cocked

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

The first Browning autos submitted to the military did not have a thumb safety. He was certain that they could get by with just the grip safety. He obviously gave in for the contract.

 

[Hybrid556]

As noted above, the striker is blocked until the trigger is pulled, taking up the slack. The tab in the trigger is to improve safety if the weapon is dropped. There is a clear danger if something gets inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered, for example a shirttail.

A thumb safety locks the sear or transfer bar, preventing discharge if the trigger is pulled, accidentally or otherwise. The grip safety on a Springfield blocks the trigger, and makes holstering safer IMO, without complicating the manual of arms.

Safeties on a standard 1911 work as above. Certain versions have a positive firing pin block, operated by the trigger or the grip safety. This prevents discharge even if the firearm is dropped on the hammer, breaking the sear or notch. I specifically bought a 1911 with the grip safety FP block. It has no effect on the reliability nor the trigger pull.

The grip safety you are refering to on a Springfield makes holstering no safer then any other firearm. Seeing as you need to either have a partial grip (such as pinching the sides of the frame between two fingers) on your handgun to "activate" the grip safety, or that you have a normal shooting grip and the safety is then negated anyway.

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[Smakmauz]

I think it's a question of semantics but my understanding is that (barring a genuine malfunction) the striker can't go forward until it's full cocked

If your using the term "fully cocked" to define pulling the trigger half way, then you are correct... It is just semantics. Because pulling halfway disables the striker block. Pulling the rest of the way just releases the striker, except for a very tiny amount (like 2%) which wouldn't even be needed for most primers to ignite.

I have hundreds of hours into messing around with and studying the internals of this system and it is much different than glocks set up which is more like what you are describing.

 

[Smakmauz]

The grip safety you are refering to on a Springfield makes holstering no safer then any other firearm. Seeing as you need to either have a partial grip (such as pinching the sides of the frame between two fingers) on your handgun to "activate" the grip safety, or that you have a normal shooting grip and the safety is then negated anyway.

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Or you use the practice of holding the gun in a normal shooting grip but pull your thumb back to where it's resting on the back of the slide. This is a good bolstering technique for striker guns because you can also feel if the slide goes out of battery when inserted. This also seems makes the grip safety function