The seductive Model 39s as collectors' subculture.

Thank you for your service in our United States Air Force.

I am grateful to you for voluntarily surrendering many of the "Rights" about which far too many people today are clueless. You and your service brethren have kept my family safe and alive - as well as the ones who would bring down our system.

Sorry, I am rather passionate over what you folks do, appreciating such deeply and can quickly take the soapbox's top. Thus, I conclude this entirely unrelated topic, but not before conveying a for-real: Thank You, Sir.

Years ago I did exactly as you suggest yourself should do: buy a 39-2 because I didn't want to screw up a far prettier M39. Worked out unexpectedly well, too, for what is now my favorite-carry 39-2 is the most accurate "old" handgun in my possession - and I sight through iron when using it.

It isn't terribly ugly, but I doubt it'd win many "pretty" awards, either. It, me and other folks taking a shot (or five) have put down some remarkably tight patterns. for a pistol produced in the early 70's.

Nearly always one can find a 39-2 that others disdain because they don't want a gun that may have fired 250 or 500 rounds . . . a count that, realistically, is finally at that gun's break-in level.

Do I still lament an extra ding on the metal and negatively impacted grips because something's corner had heavily lay upon it at some inopportune moment. You can bet your sweet bippy.

And then it speaks to me, "Oh boy! We gotta go to the range again this week and be assured I'm still fine!"

And it is, every single time.

Again: Thanks, man.

Later.
 
Acquired today from member Bob Frielich (Tired Gunsmith) who purchased this new, in 1955. Shows only slight carry wear but otherwise, perfect. Thank you, Bob.

Sal Raimondi, Sr.
 

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And thank you, Sal!! Nice find!!

Best Regards, Les

Les, the thanks is to Bob Frielich (tired gunsmith) as he chose me. I was amazed that he thought that much of me. I was humbled and honored to comply.

It's only mine for a short window in time until I have to pass it to the next care taker. :)

You're a good friend, Les. Thank you. Sal
 
Short Safety Lever and Unrelieved left stock to SN: 2623

That erroneous "2200" number has been around quite awhile and repeated frequently even though various corners of the S&W collector arenas have over the last five-to-10 years recognized higher serial number ranges for the "Pre-39," such as the below pictured S&W "Automatic 9mm," whose pedigree is established and which presently resides with this collector.

dcw-albums--family-pics-picture11014-air.jpg


The present thought line is the SN 26xx+ range is likely at the top end of the Premmie's issued serial numbers, but this collector truly has no clue even though he'd love to learn, in time, that his is the final such Pre-39 produced.

Borrowing your photo of 2623 to add to current debate on short / long safety levers and unrelieved left stock.

We have proof the short safety lever and unrelieved left stock include the entire pre-39 series.

We are trying to determine at about what serial number in the MODEL 39 series was the safety lever lengthened.

I believe there were a few changes to the length and design of the safety lever within the Model 39 series.

Sal Raimondi
 
Here's a shot of my 39-2. I bought it new in early 1980, and it has never failed to go "bang" with any type of ammo I've fed it. Next to the Remington Model 51, it and the spinoff Model 52 target pistol have the most ergonomic grips of any pistols I've ever handled.

John

MODEL_39-2-SMALL-CROPPED_zpsvm91rhud.jpg


P.S. The "Dillon article" mentioned earlier in this thread was authored by me, and appeared in Dillon's Blue Press catalog/magazine some time ago. It is also a chapter in my book 101 Classic Firearms which is available from Dillon Precision using their toll-free number 1-800-223-4570, online at their website 101 Classic Firearms by John Marshall (40133): Misc: Books & DVDs , or from Amazon.
 
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Does anyone recall seeing a pic of a S&W auto presented to Jack Webb,
"Dragnet" with sn 741?

The only presentation of an S&W to Jack Webb I recall was this one, when L.A. Chief W.H. Parker gave Webb his old badge #714 and gun used on "Dragnet." This was in 1966, and the gun looks to be a Model 36 Chief Special.

John

JACK_WEBB_PRESENTATION-LA_CHIEF_W_H_PARKER-1966_zpsfvlapn7p.jpg
 
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If the front end transition is confusing the rear end transition to the Model 39-2 may be even more so. There are Model 39 marked pistols with A prefix serial numbers; there are Model 39-2 marked guns with no prefix and there are guns that started with a roll marked Model 39 that then had "- 2" manually stamped.
 
That is exactly what I stated, 2623 is the highest pre-39 found. Well my big lazy finger got in the way. Pls forgive I meant 2624. Oh pls. great one for a common mistake. Now what was the earliest mod-39?
 
Model 39 series anomalies

That is exactly what I stated, 2623 is the highest pre-39 found. Well my big lazy finger got in the way. Pls forgive I meant 2624. Oh pls. great one for a common mistake. Now what was the earliest mod-39?

The lowest SN MODEL 39 is a project I don't think anyone has officially undertaken yet. Can't say for sure but for a guesstimate likely around SN 2650-ish. Wouldn't be odd to find overlaps both ways, e.g. earlier with MODEL 39 marking and later serial number without MODEL markings during this conversion period. I'd be most interested in seeing as many as possible between Serial numbers 2600 through 3500, should prove to be very interesting.

It wasn't like the factory woke up one morning to start model marking everything MODEL 39. There's always a transition period, when any change is implemented, that I find of particular interest.

IIRC Kevin has records or verification of a late shipment of very low serial numbers (that should be pre-39s) that were MODEL marked before being shipped many years later.

It's those charming inconsistencies that many collectors quest to seek out.

In all my years I found a few grail types including a steel frame double stack model Marked MODEL 39-2 (with the -2 in smaller character as if added later), in the 627xx range shipped to Camfour (large S&W Distributor) only a few miles, as the crow flies, from 2100 Roosevelt Ave., also well known to be "the" receiving warehouse for employee guns. 627xx is a double stack Steel frame and a Model 39, long extractor slide, in 1965, several years before the commercial model 39-2 (single stack), and model 59 (double stack) were publicly released.

See Post 7, 8, & 9 here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...9-2-steel-frame.html?highlight=Steel+frame+39

Then I found pre-39 SN: 1021 that came with an experimental slide and extractor assembly. See Here: early pre-39 with prototype upper

The other is a Model 39-2 (with the -2 added by hand) SN 109000 without the " A " prefix, NIB. (post #13 in this thread).

Kevin Williams has a few of this oddities as does EngineGuy49 and then the original 9mm (39) guru, Richard McMillan, has us all beat with his odd, unusual, 9mms, including a few X- prefix, tool room samples and a Hush Puppy factory mock-up, amongst others.
 

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Borrowing your photo of 2623 to add to current debate on short / long safety levers and unrelieved left stock.

We have proof the short safety lever and unrelieved left stock include the entire pre-39 series.

We are trying to determine at about what serial number in the MODEL 39 series was the safety lever lengthened.

I believe there were a few changes to the length and design of the safety lever within the Model 39 series.

Sal Raimondi

My Model39, serial 7175, has the short safety lever.
 
with sole credit and thanks to Richard McMillan

The most significant research work on early 9mm and subsequent S&W pistols was executed by Richard McMillan in 2004 published in the S&WCA Journal, spring 2006. Richard's article was (then) and is still, now, a magnificent, ground-breaking labor of love for the S&W Autos.

In the past 14 years since the first print of Richard's work, there have been new developments that we should submit here for Richard to review and amended, as he is "the" original Model 39 guru. Richard helped me immensely in my early years of Model 39 collecting and still till this day provides pearls of wisdom from his ongoing quest for research.

Richard indicates that about about SN 8000 the short safety lever was replaced by the longer safety release lever. I believe that may have been a typographical error as new research cuts that serial number range down to approximately SN Range of 3000-4000. Or, it could be correct, as printed. Everyone needs to pitch in with data to affirm these (and other) changes.

Richard also shows some very low serial numbers he calls "reissues" that are model marked MODEL 39 (SN: 1917) and have the long release lever. Author Kevin Williams (IIRC) noted a small batch of very low (pre-39) serial numbers that shipped many years later with MODEL 39 stamped, prior to being shipped.

I also believe the flat follower magazine went away much earlier than Richard had previously thought. Also, there are several revisions or minor changes to the stamped steel, figure 8 magazines that should be researched further.

Also, in the photos of the magazines for the Model 52 and 52A, while the descriptions are impeccable, the two photos are reversed. The one designated at the 52 is the 52A, and the one designated as teh 52A is actually the 52.

>>>> Awhile back I had offered a link to download a copy of the scanned version of this article by Richard McMillan. I will do so, again, if it will help us gain serious investigative research assistants ... HOWEVER ... ACCORDING TO S&WCA and FORUM rules, I can offer this download link to my scanned version of Richard's article to S&WCA members, ONLY. SORRY to all you others. Email me from my profile link in this Forum, stating your name and S&WCA Member ID number, please. <<<<

Also, for many years we thought that 2605 (which I own) was the latest pre-39. We now have proof of 2624 being the highest known SN on a Pre-39 and I wouldn't be surprised if a few more showed up a bit higher than 2624 wherein we can also expect a few in the transition period to be found with various markings.

Richard also noted that at ( or about ) SN: A 121000 the 39-2 commenced. Since there have been earlier serial numbers verified. One is SN 109000 (no A prefix) which is a legitimate 39-2 with the new, short extractor slide. The -2 is in a smaller typeset seemingly added to the MODEL 39 as the SN: 109000 is directly centered over the MODEL 39, with the -2 added is no longer centered. See post #13 in this thread.

I had owned a consecutive set of model 39s, (not 39-2s), for over 20 years. They were non-factory engraved. They had been shipped to Texas dealer, Wolf & Klar in a larger order of Model 39s, all NOT engraved. These two were serial Numbers 109475 and 109476 that truly ARE Model 39s in every sense of the definition. Stamped "MODEL 39", long extractor, no A prefix, etc.

This research should be considered a "work in progress", with all of us pitching in with new data.


SHORT EXCERPT from Richard's article of 2004 (START)

1.3 The Pre-39s
The first production run of the Model 39 was in late 1954, and the first fifteen hundred guns or so are referred to by collectors as Pre-39s because they are not marked with a model number.

The serial numbers fall between 1001 and 2600 and are intermixed with the Model 41 serial numbers. Model numbers were not assigned until 1958, so this group of Pre-39s represents the first three years of production. In fact, some of the Pre-39 features appear intermittently up to approximately serial number 8000.

The distinguishing features of the Pre-39 compared to the Model 39 are as follows:

Short safety
Short tang
A unique frame back strap Insert and hammer stirrup
A unique left grip (no safety relief)
No trigger play spring
No model number on frame
No patent pending on early slides (Late Pre-39 slides have
the patent pending; however, slides were fitted without
regard for serial numbers. For example, serial number
1069, which was shipped from the factory on October 4,
1955, has the patent pending marking, while 1150 that
shipped on July 7, 1955 does not.)

Two types of early flat magazines followers were used before standardizing on a third type

Supplied with an instruction booklet (Only the Pre-39s and early Model 39s to about serial number 7000 were supplied with the instruction booklet.)
Figure 1.3.1, Pre-39 Serial Number 1151, One of a Consecutive Numbered Pair Note, the Short Tang and Short Safety

The Pre-39 as introduced in 1954 had an over-all length of 7 1/2 inches, barrel length of 4 inches, and sight radius of 5 1/2 inches. The rifling has six grooves, six lands, right hand twist, one turn in ten inches.

The lands are .071 inch wide and the groove width .115 inch. The weight of the gun, with an empty magazine, is approximately 28 ounces.

The barrels were changed in 1973 to five grooves and a one in 18-3/4 inch twist at approximately serial number A200,000.

Most of the Pre-39s as well as the Model 39s have the letter P (proof) stamped on the left hand side of the trigger guard. This stamping continues up to somewhere between serial number A250,000 and A300,000, at which time it was changed to the letter T(test).

The P was then stamped on the bottom of the barrel. The mark is to show that the barrel has been test fired.

1.4 The Pre-39 Reissue
A number of Model 39s have serial numbers which should be a Pre-39 gun, but are, in fact, Model 39s.

The guns were apparently returned to the factory at some time, probably for a major repair such as for a cracked frame. The factory, rather than repairing the gun, obtained a new gun from the then current production, stamped the old serial number on the new gun, and returned it to the owner.

These reissues are relativity common, particularly among guns in the low 2000 serial number range.

Figure 1.4.1 Serial Number 1917, Pre-39 Replacement Manufactured About 1966

SHORT EXTRACT from Richard's 2004 Article ( END )
 
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Sal - you may not be aware that Mac has continued to update his monograph and there are revised versions from 2011, 2012 and 2015. My most recent copy is dated 5/26/16. I don't know how Mike would feel about it but I think it would be appropriate for it to be reprinted in the Journal. A lot has been learned and there has been a lot of membership turnover in 14 years.
 
Sal - you may not be aware that Mac has continued to update his monograph and there are revised versions from 2011, 2012 and 2015. My most recent copy is dated 5/26/16. I don't know how Mike would feel about it but I think it would be appropriate for it to be reprinted in the Journal. A lot has been learned and there has been a lot of membership turnover in 14 years.

Kevin, If you have it in PDF can you email it over to me. I just have the 2006 version. Much appreciated. Sal
 
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