The "Surplus Schofields"

[BMur]

I'm back on my research for the Schofields and Wells Fargos.

In my antique ammo collection I have several dug ups from an Old Army Fort in New Mexico. I was going through them today and Noticed that the Frankford Arsenal date stamp on the latest 45 Schofield is March of 1885?

Also, both the Schofields and the Single Action Army "Benet" primed cases supported "Hollow Base" bullets? These are authentic period bullets found at the same location as the shells. I've never seen or heard of hollow based bullets for these 45 Cal revolvers but there they are!

My primary question is since the Schofield Revolvers went to Surplus in 1880....Obviously there were quite a few still in service in 1885 since The Frankford Arsenal was still cranking out ammo. So that's at least 5 years after they went to surplus? That seems to me to be quite a long time. I'm wondering what took so long to remove them from service?

If we look at other Military contracts of that era? Replacing revolvers never took that long! Seems like the Schofield revolver wasn't removed from service as fast as is documented?


Murph

 

[BMur]

Springfield Records

I'm cross referencing the Military Records available that show in 1880 there were 3,000 Single Action 45 Cal Colt revolvers issued to the Cavalry. This co-insides with the same year the Schofields were apparently sent to surplus. See Photo of authentic recorded numbers.

Following the subsequent years starting in 1880 with the Schofields going to Surplus? You can see that by 1885 an additional 11,000 45 Colts were already issued. So, the Schofields should have been gone by then but obviously they weren't for some reason.

Also, by 1885 over 31,000 total Colt 45's were issued to the Cavalry. That's a lot!

Murph

 

[StrawHat]

The Army had been using the 45 S&W ammunition in both revolvers. No reason not to continue that practice even though one of the revolvers has been retired.

Kevin

 

[LittleCooner]

The .45 Schofield cartridge was shorter than the .45 Colt. It could be used in both the Schofield and the Colt 45 Peacemaker, but the .45 Colt was too long to use in the Schofield. As a result, by the late 1880s the army finally standardized on a .45 cartridge designed to fire in both revolvers, the M1887 Military Ball Cartridge. The M1887 was made at Frankford Arsenal, and was issued only to the military. It had the shorter case of the Schofield and the reduced rim of the Colt round; as it was short enough to fit the Schofield, and its rim was not needed for the rod-ejector Single Action Army, the M1887 would fire and eject from both revolvers.

Interesting question on a subject I have no knowledge, so I found the above on Wikipedia. It appears from the above statement that the government continued to issue and manufacture 45 S&W that may also contain a 86 & 87 date stamp? A most interesting time of our history of firearms, everyone was trying to invent a better mouse trap and rise to the top of the heap. Am I correct that the single action Colt only became the sidearm because of the more powerful round when it appears the break action S&W would have been the superior sidearm as Schofield intended on the ability to quick reload by horse mounted men.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Am I correct that the single action Colt only became the sidearm because of the more powerful round when it appears the break action S&W would have been the superior sidearm as Schofield intended on the ability to quick reload by horse mounted men.

From the SCSW, 4th Ed.

The Schofield originated with the efforts of Col. George Schofield to improve the American Model Three for military usage. As noted earlier, the American was the first cartridge revolver adopted by the military in 1870, with a purchase of 1000. However, in 1874 the Army purchased 8000 Colt Single Action Army models, noting a preference for their strength and simplicity. In Army tests of this era, S&W Americans and Russians passed the firing and functioning criteria, but were criticized for their complexity and number of parts. The greater ease and speed of reloading was noted, but was not given much credence as a tactical advantage. The Russian model was criticized for the awkwardness of its grip, hammer, and trigger-guard spur.

(Page 111).

The 1st model Schofield was issued in 1875, a year after the Army adopted the Colt SAA. If S&W had chambered it for .45 Colt, it likely would have replaced the SAA as the handgun of choice. But, gun manufacturers back then were cutthroat not to give any recognition to a competitor. So, S&W made a short version of the .45 Colt and it proved problematic when all that was available was .45 Colt which rendered the Schofields inoperable.

 

[Kurusu]

The load reduction on the "government" .45 cartridge started because the full 40 grs load proved to be too much for mounted Cavalry "greenhorns" that would easily fall from their horses when firing. Modern smokeless .45 Colt is loaded closer to the equivalent of around 23/26 grs blackpowder than to the "real deal" 40 grs..

It only made sense, for logistic reasons, to standardise the round to Schofield lenght.

The model 3 Smith & Wesson could easily handle the more powerfull .45 Colt cartridge, but the frame wasn't long enough, and apparently folks at Smith & Wesson thought it wasn't worth it to changd the frame. They later did it for the Japanese Navy contract in .44-40(same power and lenght as.45 Colt).

 

[BMur]

1887 Frankford 45 Ball Cartridge

The 1887 "Ball" cartridge was actually manufactured to be chambered in "BOTH" revolvers by the Frankford Arsenal. That being said, obviously both revolvers were still in service. In fact the same article claims that the Schofields were in service until 1892. I don't know where they came to that conclusion but the records that I posted support this position. A gradual removal from service that began in 1880 and took 12 years to complete. That is amazing to me. 12 years to remove a gun from service? Sure doesn't make sense to me. The entire removal of the Schofield honestly doesn't make sense to me. Especially since they actually manufactured a viable round in 1887 that fits and functions in "BOTH" guns!

I'm going to look closely at the dug up bullets that I have and look at the rifling signature to see if any have the Smith and Wesson pattern rifling.

I'm not buying into the concept that the Frankford Arsenal kept making the 45 Schofield round after the gun was removed from service. I think the 1887 Ball round is proof positive that the Schofield was still out there for several more years in fact!

Murph

 

[LoboGunLeather]

In addition to the use of a standardized .45 caliber cartridge for both the Colt and S&W revolvers there is the history of issuing handguns. Revolvers were routinely issued to enlisted soldiers, particularly cavalry troops, but officers were expected to furnish their own sidearms. Many officers of the Indian Wars period served for decades and may well have retained the S&W handguns long after those in Army inventory were withdrawn as surplus.

During the same period the Army also contracted with civilian scouts and utilized Indian auxiliaries (mostly in the scouting and tracking capacity), some of whom may have acquired revolvers over the years, maybe even purchasing those S&W revolvers when declared as surplus. There was probably a good reason to maintain supplies of ammunition suitable for those uses.

Military officers were not usually issued handguns until about World War II, and most of the available and popular handguns were in regular use for many years.

 

[Kurusu]

Actually the Schofield made much more sense as a "Cavalry pistol" than the SAA.

 

[BMur]

Cross Referencing the Wells Fargos

When we plug in the Wells Fargos? The pattern of a "Gradual" elimination of the Schofields from Military Service fits as well.

Multiple type Wells Fargo Property Stamps also suggests multiple bulk contracts between Major Distributors and Express Companies that took place over about a 8-10 year period beginning in 1880. Likely beginning in 1880 with about 3,000 Schofields going to Surplus. With each year more and more being sold off to surplus. I had no idea it was this long a period though. It does fit the pattern of Gradual distribution. It also fits like a glove the purchasing of Express guns "gradually" by the Express Agents. Their interest in the Schofields would be a NO Brainer.

Very interesting history to the Schofields and what happened to them once the Major Distributor got their hands on them.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Historical Research

Ok,
I found the source of the 1892/3 Schofield. See photo. Apparently the Army already had the Stock on hand but gradually issued the guns all the way up to 1893 in very low numbers towards the end.

So, what they had on hand that went to surplus likely was never even issued/used! Amazing. It's also amazing if you look at the numbers you can see the potential in sales to the Military after the Schofield was discontinued in about 1879. The Army was still wanting more 45's. So they just purchased Colts!

Also, amazing to me is how long it took for the Frankford Arsenal to come up with a "dual purpose" 45 Round in 1887 for both the Colt and Smith & Wesson? 12 years? Talk about boneheads!

Simple question: How do we resolve this problem with the 45 cartridge not fitting in both our revolvers? HMMMM....I know, lets make one that fits in both guns! 12 years later!!

Take a good look at the list I posted and you will see just how many Revolvers that could have been Schofields were issued to the Military post 1878 if they had just kept making the gun and simply made a cartridge that would fit and function in both Revolvers. Significant mistake in my opinion.

So, again, looking at these numbers also supports that approximately 3,000 Schofields went to Surplus in 1880 and that those guns were never even issued. Sat in the Arsenal for 2 years and then sold as Surplus....Wow! That's Amazing!!


Murph

 

[Kurusu]

Once again and ever. Tax Dollars at work.

 

[BMur]

Removal from Arsenals

I found multiple sources that claim "ALL" the Schofields were removed from "Regular" Army Arsenals by 1880.

However, if we reference the issuance of Schofields? by this time (1880) there were already approximately 4,256 Schofields of the 8,285 delivered to the Army that were already issued and in the field. Subsequent years also list additional firearms issued. Not in great numbers but they were issued so I'm not taking that source of information as point of fact or absolute. More of a general statement. It does still support that between 3,000-4,000 went to Surplus very quickly and that those were in mint, unused condition.


Murph

 

[opoefc]

Murph, What is the source of the lists you posted ? The totals do not seam to match ordnance records or archival data. Are those numbers just military or do they include the civilian Schofields gifted or sold to individuals and distributors? Thanks, Ed

 

[BMur]

Source of research numbers?

Hi Ed,
My first listing is from the Keith Cochran book: Colt Peacemaker Encyclopedia page 89. Listing of Cavalry Model Annual Procurement from 1873 to 1893. None of these listings include Civilian sales etc.

Second listing is a compiling and comparison that was edited in the book Handguns of the World by Edward C. Ezell on page 59. Also a reference to John E. Parsons "The Peacemaker and its Rivals circa 1950 and slightly different figures but close enough from Ron Graham's "Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver Page 455. All references basically concur with the posted numbers.

The best reference in my opinion is the Handguns of the World which is an extensive study of Military issued firearms. I still don't know where they obtained the information about the Army Arsenals removing "ALL" of the Schofields by 1880. There were many, many Schofields already issued by 1880 so that's an interesting perspective.

I believe it was a focus on Surplus guns that were stored in the Arsenals. NOT "ALL" the Schofields! Surplus to me means beyond what is needed from a Military perspective at any given time. They obviously had a large Surplus of Single Action Army revolvers as well. So, I'm thinking that perhaps 1,000 were kept for re-supply in lieu of "eventually" and "gradually" removing them from service which is exactly what happened from the information that I'm finding. I'm not challenging anyone here just evaluating what I'm reading and documenting. The concept of "ALL" the Scofields going to surplus in 1880 I believe is not true.
In fact less than half went to Surplus.

What's also great about the Handguns of the World reference is that the author included Military letters from Ordnance officers and an important letter from Cavalry officers
from the Seventh in late 1877 who were involved in a number of very small engagements with Indians. They felt that the rapid reloading feature of the Schofield wasn't as important a feature...Obviously they were not at the Little Big Horn?

There is a HUGE piece to the puzzle that we are missing here and I'm digging for it. I just have a real problem with the Army selling off 3,000 + "BRAND NEW 45 caliber GUNS" stored at Arsenals. Never even used....WHY???



Murph

 

[BMur]

Elimination of the Schofields

I'm really starting to believe the sole reason that the Army was slowly removing the Schofields from service is mainly due to the Decision from Smith & Wesson to discontinue the model in 1879.

Having Surplus in an Armory of a gun that is no longer being manufactured is not smart. The clock starts ticking regarding the firearm being serviceable and automatically puts the Military in a position to gradually Phase out that model. That's basically what happened. I honestly don't believe that the Army did not want the Schofield. They DID NOT sell off ALL the Schofields in 1880....They Phased them out gradually. Which was unfortunate for Smith & Wesson in my opinion. Military contracts are kinda huge.

This is also supported by the Frankford Arsenal introducing the 1887 45cal cartridge that chambered in both guns. Obviously they were still tending to the Schofield Revolvers at that later time still in service. That doesn't sound like a gun that the Army did not want in service.

I'll go one step further, lightly as I can. I would imagine that the Army wasn't too thrilled with having to phase out a brand new gun and actually sell off new pistols in Storage to Surplus. Probably not too happy about a new gun being discontinued. They were obviously not too happy with Col. Schofield as well. Two years later he commits suicide.

I'm a slow learner but I think I see the picture quite clearly now.

So, it wasn't the guns faults that the military phased it out in my researched opinion. The gun was an excellent Cavalry pistol.

Murph

 

[opoefc]

Murph, Thanks for your explanation of where the list you posted got it's start. I'm familiar with the authors and sources you cite. Cochran, (who was a personal fried of mine and we cooperated on much of his Colt info.) and Ezell are writer/editors, not primarily original source researchers and their info was obtained from what was already in print from other sources I beleive, and to my knowledge they did not personally vet the info. they printed. Probably the best qualified author was Parsons as he did extensive research and had access to some factory archives now gone missing. Parson's notes have disappeared however, but the research has been carried on by others using more recently uncovered archival info. that disproves some commonly accepted and long published Schofield info. including Parsons. Especially quanity shipped and where shipped and serial number ranges of 1st models vs. 2nd models, as well as serial numbers of 1st model civilian guns. - Now having said all that, missing from the above postings is the explanation regarding Army shipment of Schofields to State Guard and Militia units. These are recorded in the military archives and regulations in place at the time required the Army to supply those units with ordnance materials and they became a handy outlet for surplus Schofields. Many of these units promptly turned around and sold the Schofields received from the Army to surplus dealers who then sold to buyers like Wells Fargo. Many sources say S&W made 3035 1st models. Factory records cannot verify this. Springfield Arsenal records of Schofields received from S&W do not verify this. There are several known 2nd model Schofields with serial numbers between 3001 and 3035. If the factory did make 3035 1st models then there has to be duplicate serial numbers known. A data base of Schofields kept for 40 yrs has never reported a duplicate number. Personally I beleive the factory did make 3035 1st models but 35 of them had their own serial number range, probably 1 to 35, as that is the only explanation of why there are 1st model civilian Schofields known, and my current mission, with the help of others, is to prove that theory. One of the current endeavors of Schofield scholars is to identify these 1st model non-military civilian made and sold / gifted revolvers. ( Two are known, so far, Ser.#6 & 13 ) Parsons apparently had access to the Factory Day Book which listed names of some Army officers receiving Schofields, but no serial numbers were shown. Factory 1st model shipping records are too fragile for Dr. Roy Jinks to satisfactorily read and he uses the invoice date the factory billed the Army as the shipping date for factory letters. Also, the US stamp on a Schofield is not indicative of a military shipped gun as that stamp is applied early in the manufacturing process and those stamped parts could be used for both civilian and miltary guns. (Nos 6 & 13 are US stamped, but are civilian guns. ) If any Forum member has a Schofield, ser. #s 1 to 35 and it's not a Wells Fargo gun, pls PM me. You may have a very rare 1st model civilian, even if it has a US stamp. Ed

 

[BMur]

Official documents

Thanks very kindly Ed,
I really appreciate your input and knowledge on the Schofields. If I find anything regarding the Civilian examples I will share that information. It's really a shame when documents disappear. I don't understand that kind of mentality. Nothing of this earth we can take with us. Those historical documents belong to everyone.
I thought you might like these photo's from my 1903 Bannermans Catalog where he was actually still trying to sell the last 100 remaining Schofields among the mountains of his military memorabilia with their original Military holsters no less. For a whopping $7. Get them while they last!

Murph

 

[walnutred]

I wonder how many of the "surplus" Schofields continued service with State Militias (pre National Guard)? State Militias being federalized for WW1 and reporting with Trapdoor Springfields is largely what prompted the standardization of the National Guard. In the late 1980s my American Legion Post switched from Krags to M1 Garands for our salute rifles because the Feds had finally run out of 30-40 Krag blanks. Items can stwy in government warehouses for quite a while it seems.

 

[BMur]

Knee Jerk

The only conclusion I can come up with is a Government Knee Jerk reaction to the discontinuance of the Schofield revolver in 1879 regarding the Surplus Sales of the Armory stored Schofield revolvers.
I suspect the Army regretted that decision some years later.

Cross referencing the U.S. Navy at that same time frame? They were cutting costs big time. Forced to Convert Civil War ERA revolvers to cartridge instead of purchasing new guns. Smith & Wesson 38's were actually being considered at that same time to replace outdated Navy Colts. I wonder if this decision to terminate the Schofields in 1879 had a negative impact on that contract and future contracts as well?

The Militia guns would be a very interesting subject I'm sure but no idea where you could locate records for those weapons.


Murph