The true definition of a Threepersons Style holster

[rednichols]

I always thought of the Threepersons as a holster for a single action. Not that it can't be used for other actions, but given the SA as a starting point the relevant criteria for me is the exposed trigger guard, exposed hammer, forward cant and a high-ride.

The Wolfram pictured would not qualify as the hammer has too much coverage. I picture a Threepersons as exposing a great deal of the revolver at the top.

My hands-down favorite would be the Lawrence 120. The Myers is right there with it.

Oooh, kinda right. The Threepersons is indeed always described that way, beginning with his shooting buddy Charlie Askins. But it's not a correct definition; but rather an unintended result.

Follow me: the first 'threepersons' was developed from the basic holster design of Texas' famous King Ranch, which was trimmed to a minimum and raised high on the belt and tilted with the rear sight ahead of the front sight; called 'positive caster'.

Notice the large 'cuff', the large belt loop tunnel, the wide fender behind the holster body, the very long drop. It's not yet a Threepersons: to big, too wide, too deep.

The result of all that trimming was what we know today as a Brill although August Brill did not create it.

This was done so that the Texas Rangers assigned to Austin in 1906ish could fully conceal all of their arms and ammo. The result was the exposed trigger guard because the pistol grip was above the belt line; and that belt was only a 1" wide trousers belt now; no gunbelts allowed and certainly no ammo on the trousers belt.

This one is from Brill's earliest period. A second Brill era began in 1932 and they are distinctly different. Now notice all the leather that's been cut away, and that the revolver will ride very high and angled.

When Tom Threepersons' maker, believed to be in Douglas AZ, got done with it the difficult cuff and fender were gone, too; and it looked like this (this is actually Tom's prototype):



He licensed Sam Myres to use his name -- i.e., he 'endorsed' the new gunleather range of 1930 -- and when that appeared it looked like this:



And by the time it got to become FBI issue, and used by the likes of D.A. Bryce and Jerry Campbell, it looked like this:



Gunleather makers have been copying that last design ever since; including Lawrence.

What IS a Threepersons: for a revolver it has a mighty thick welt inside that grips the frame. For an automatic the welt is there, too, but the guard is INSIDE the holster still. It is MOST common for the DA yet that very short frame ahead of the guard makes it problematic to actually grip much; and by this century every gunleather maker including EPS had forgotten the purpose of the welts so rarely are they functional except by accident of construction.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

FANTASTIC information fellers.......This should be a sticky.

 

[crazyphil]

FANTASTIC information fellers.......This should be a sticky.

At the very least it deserves a few stars. Have you voted?

 

[crazyphil]

I'm not an expert in much of anything, but I think this O Ball with a dog ear that I got from Kansasgunner for an N Frame (28 no dash shown) fits the description.

LPD256, like you, Oliver Ball was a lawman. He was a
Lt. (homicide detective) on the Ft. Worth PD from
1940 to 1976. He passed away in 1983.

He made holsters for graduates of the police academy
and for many Texas lawmen.

He also had a reputation as a boxing referee.

Here is a photo of my O. Ball holster with my Model 67
Combat Masterpiece in it.

 

[glenwolde]

OK so is this the definition?: "What IS a Threepersons: for a revolver it has a mighty thick welt inside that grips the frame. For an automatic the welt is there, too, but the guard is INSIDE the holster still."

Given the history and the knowledge of those that posted it above I won't disagree with that, but it's awfully broad. It could be a full-flap holster, shoulder holster, cross draw...really anything. It's hard to call that a "style" it's so broad. Or is that all y'alls point?

 

[turnerriver]

There are different perspectives represented here- Red is a designer and maker as well as a historical researcher. I'm a collector of holsters, catalogs, ephemera and related items. I might characterize Phil as a collector/user, other posters offer their own perspectives.
Here are some catalog cuts depicting Threepersons holsters.
Myres 1931 catalog.

Myres mid 1950's.

1931 catalog showing a Threeepersons shoulder holster.

1940 catalog showing a different Threepersons shoulder holster. By the 1960's holsters that were cataloged as Tom Threepersons styles were referred to as Quick Draw holsters, reference to Threepersons was largely discontinued.

A cut from a 1949 Lawrence catalog showing " entirely new postwar designs ", the model 34 holster is their version of a Threepersons style. The Keith model 120 holster is also a Threepersons style, originally described as being primarily for single action revolvers.

A cut from a 1950's Heiser catalog showing their FBI style holster, their version of a Threepersons.

S.D. Myres and the actual Tom Threepersons who wasn't really Tom Threepersons had an agreement to use the name in promoting Myres' holsters, other manufacturers didn't use the name in describing their offerings.
Confusing ? Yes, but to me at least entertaining.
Regards,
turnerriver

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

At the very least it deserves a few stars. Have you voted?

Been here 19 years. Was here before Handejector took over. Never heard of voting on a post.

 

[LPD256]

This old gal is on her way to the range. Heiser 457, once again from my friend Tim (kansasgunner) accompanied by a Model 13-3 4 inch. I have a hundred rounds of .38 Special that needs to punch some paper bad guys.

 

[crazyphil]

Been here 19 years. Was here before Handejector took over. Never heard of voting on a post.

Up at the top of the thread on the right side click on
RATING. It asks you how many stars you want to
give the thread. Then it says Vote Now.

Don't feel bad, I learn something new almost every
time I log on.

 

[rednichols]

Turnerriver's post is great but I'm unwilling to use the 'quote' button and duplicate its length!

The devil is in a detail: he, and I, and Phil, and heaps of others willingly cite the Heiser 457 as a Threepersons -- and it absolutely is. The significance of the design is in its description in Heiser's 1939 catalog; and that this is just a few years after the BOI became the FBI in 1935 (and cue the .357 Magnum that killed off the 38 Super of 1929 (Hoover was buying the latter in '35):

". . . there is a welt down the side but does not extend clear across bottom, welt permits a snug fit."



Today we say, 'oh, a welt, of course' but instead welts were not used in any significant way until the Threepersons. First to use them, as mentioned, was the King Ranch of the turn of that century (both Doc White and Frank Hamer are pictured while wearing them then) and they were used in the Brills and copies by the Rangers after that. But welts didn't find wide use until Sam Myres' Threepersons Range of 1930 and onwards.



A post-1932 Brill for a DA revolver can have THREE welts in it and were sewn by hand (we have photo evidence of them being hand sewn); and Tom's own holster has two in it and is also hand sewn (I have the holster itself).



By my Bianchi days end of the '70s, JB's Threepersons had one or two because the second welt was used to make the K frame blank fit the slightly larger Python frame. When I make a Threepersons today I use a hybrid of the Western School and the Eastern School (why not) in which there is a pair of thick welts at the frame only (my machine easily stitches them) and after tapering them there is NO welt in the rest of the seam along the barrel.

A replica of the inside of Tom's own holster, showing the rather fearsome 'welt stack' inside.

Looks like I failed to describe the 'attached thumbnail' image and it is floating off by itself: a Threepersons for the automatics by Brill (this one) and by Myres, in that era, accepted the entire pistol. I expect because their makers feared the pistol would simpy fall out. This one is RARE and belongs to a forum member: it's by N.J. Rabensburg so made 1932 to 1961 (his death); it's open-muzzle instead of closed; and it has a hole through its backside to prevent the mag button being pressed. The Sessums version, made by Bedell Rogers and his father Robert, used a loop of leather under the lining to create a well to protect this button.

Who knows all this useless ****?!

 

[crazyphil]

Do I see a rivet at the top of the welt on the 457? Or are my eyes just
messing with me?

Here, on the left, is my 457 and there is no rivet where they show one
in your catalog. This is kind of an old timer. It has the elongated HHH
maker's mark.

2nd from left is my black 457. It is a little newer and has the football
shaped maker's mark.

3rd from left is a 459. Only difference is the added "dog ear".

 

[rednichols]

Do I see a rivet at the top of the welt on the 457? Or are my eyes just
messing with me?

Here, on the left, is my 457 and there is no rivet where they show one
in your catalog. This is kind of an old timer. It has the elongated HHH
maker's mark.

2nd from left is my black 457. It is a little newer and has the football
shaped maker's mark.

3rd from left is a 459. Only difference is the added "dog ear".

All great points. The 459 with the hammer protector was introduced in Heiser's No 50 catalog that was printed for 1951; Keyston Bros. just having acquired Heiser from The Denver upon Ewald Heiser's death in '49, car crash. 1950 is also significant (besides being my birth year) because Evaluators Ltd was founded then just after the General retired from the Army also in '49; and the 459 appears often with the Evaluators Ltd logo imprinted on its backside. Turnerriver has shared with me a letter between Clyde Parr at Heiser and the General, in which the latter asks that the 'FBI' letters be ground off the stamp; and indeed these holsters are found both ways .

Ditto the rivet at the top of the welt; the 457 at least is found both ways; but because of the welt and the return stitching there, is unnecessary.



But needed on a holster without a welt because the 'empty' seam leaves the stitching in peril of being ripped out on a Threeperson because of human nature with holstered pistols; to wit:



It's an example of why we designer/makers must not slavishly copy our predecessors work; but instead understand the science of the designs. When we at Bianchi tried rivets at the top of our welts because of the ripping early '70s, the real answer was to switch to nylon thread! And Safariland then did the same. Otherwise we'd all be using rivets to this day.

When thinking about the timing of the hammer guard being added to the 457 to create the 459 (their correct numbers only when the finish is 'plain', different first digit for carved and for basket) consider that Hank Sloan included the hammer guard in his holster that he notified his FBI employers about, in 1964 -- and the designer of the 457 in '39 was Al Kippen, who created the 459 for Heiser then cofounded Colorado Saddlery; then was at J.M. Bucheimer 1954 onwards to work with Sloan on his prototypes early 1960s.

 

[crazyphil]

Heiser marked Mexican carved holsters with 7 for the first number.
The Mexican carved, oxblood, Heiser on the left is marked 757.
The Mexican carved, brown, Heiser on the right, with "dog ear",
is marked 759. My memory isn't what it once was, but I don't
remember ever seeing a basket weave Heiser. I sold both of the
holsters, shown here, a while back. (Just call me crazy)

UPDATE: I went to the search function and looked up Heiser
basket weave holster. Sure enough, bracebeamer had acquired
and posted a basket weave Heiser. Marked 711.

 

[turnerriver]

Basketweave Heisers aren't that common, I see more floral carved examples than basketweave ones. The number prefix for them is 5. 4xx is plain, 5xx is basketweave & 7xx is floral carved.
Regards,
turnerriver

 

[crazyphil]

I wonder why bracebeamer's basket weave Heiser has the 7 prefix?
711. Did Heiser make some changes in numbering? Or perhaps
Heiser made a mistake. I have seen mistakes they made before
and strike over the mistaken number with the correct number.

 

[turnerriver]

That's my guess too, a mistake that slipped by and didn't get corrected.
Regards,
turnerriver

 

[Texas Star]

Where did Alfonso Pineda fit in? I've seen his holsters that look VERY like Bianchi products. He was n Los Angeles.

 

[Texas Star]

We need to discuss the so-called thumb break holster, like Safariland's Model 29. That's my preference, for most needs. Gaylord was the first maker I saw promoting it. Did it come earlier?

 

[crazyphil]

According to our resident Holstorian Red Nichols, the thumb snap, or
thumb break if you prefer, was created by A. J. Kippen, along with his
employer G. R. Bucheimer, in 1956-1957.

 

[crazyphil]

Anyone who has had the lining of a nice suit jacket shredded by the
hammer spur on the revolver knows the value of the hammer guard
(that I refer to as a "dog ear"). Although much discussed on here,
I don't think we ever arrived at a definite conclusion as to who created
the hammer guard. I wonder why it wasn't patented?