An alarming experience, certainly -- thank goodness it was at the range. Fortunately it reflects the exception, not the rule; MIM is proven across many industries and usages. If production isn't correct, any part can fail be it MIM, cast or forge.
The use of MIM parts - S&W's explanation
- Thread starter Flipside
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bigtubby
Member
My two cents; When a person or company says "Its not about the money"
Believe me its about the money!!
Believe me its about the money!!
jhcii
US Veteran
The Army took me to Germany from 1996 to 1999 in Hanau. I lived in Old Argonner Kasserne near the PX and gun store selling guns there (Outdoor Club or Sportsman Club). I took a hunting course to qualify for a roe deer and boar hunt later on if I got my vacation after 8 months.
The teacher of hunting in Germany to US Soldiers stationed in Hanau area took us through the complexity of hunting in Germany and how different it was from Kentucky or Alaska.
He also spent time on US Army property to sell guns from US and also from Germany or other places across the pond.
His complaint about MIM parts when he had to gunsmith was it was brittle and worthless to work on if it had to be sanded or ground. MIM was "cast" metal without the tolerance of real steel in steel mills with blocks of the stuff to use anywhere steel was needed. In gun barrels chrome moly is the ticket and in internal working parts that need some adjustment because of wear the MIM is a replacement while the milled steel stuff is easily used once again for more service--just get the gun into the hands of a tool man instead of a computerized replacement mold.
But I do have two SW 29-10s today that are actually more accurate and durable than the 1956 originally introduced by SW.
There's a picture of a stainless 629-1 mixed in the lot.
The two 29-10s are better than the originals for durability and accuracy. Fait accompli as far as I care.
MIM to me means modern and hopefully the company using MIM knows better what they are doing than the money market or opinion.
Do I like MIM?
No. I like the Colt Single Action Army in .44-40 instead:
I know it ain't Clint Eastwood but it was for real in the old west and I'm just an old westerner.
The teacher of hunting in Germany to US Soldiers stationed in Hanau area took us through the complexity of hunting in Germany and how different it was from Kentucky or Alaska.
He also spent time on US Army property to sell guns from US and also from Germany or other places across the pond.
His complaint about MIM parts when he had to gunsmith was it was brittle and worthless to work on if it had to be sanded or ground. MIM was "cast" metal without the tolerance of real steel in steel mills with blocks of the stuff to use anywhere steel was needed. In gun barrels chrome moly is the ticket and in internal working parts that need some adjustment because of wear the MIM is a replacement while the milled steel stuff is easily used once again for more service--just get the gun into the hands of a tool man instead of a computerized replacement mold.
But I do have two SW 29-10s today that are actually more accurate and durable than the 1956 originally introduced by SW.
There's a picture of a stainless 629-1 mixed in the lot.
The two 29-10s are better than the originals for durability and accuracy. Fait accompli as far as I care.
MIM to me means modern and hopefully the company using MIM knows better what they are doing than the money market or opinion.
Do I like MIM?
No. I like the Colt Single Action Army in .44-40 instead:
I know it ain't Clint Eastwood but it was for real in the old west and I'm just an old westerner.
3rdgeargrndrr
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I'll keep my old guns, and keep watching them appreciate for now.
The Xframe works great though, have to admit
robert1804
Member
One thing we don't see discussed much is the problem of availability of forged replacement parts. Some parts are already hard to find for pre-MIM guns. Extractors, hammers, triggers, hands, cylinder stops and more. In a decade or less, keeping these old guns working will be a challenge. S&W increasingly no longer supports older guns. And don't necessarily believe all the hype on these wonderful old pre-MIM guns. If you shoot them a lot, you'll be wearing out some parts.
Newer MIM guns will be much easier to find parts for well into the future. I believe as we gain experience and round counts, these MIM guns will prove equally and likely more durable than the old guns. I am shooting my old pre-MIM guns less, partly out of concern for the long term parts problem.
I am shooting several newer S&W MIM revolvers that are proving to be, on average, more accurate than their older versions. It's not just the MIM parts. CNC machining, accurate cylinder throating and good timing may have something to do with it, too.
I for one would pay for guns with the best of new and old. But it is not going to happen. I'm just hoping S&W introduces a replacement for my now worn 14-3. MIM parts, lock and so-so blueing, or even stainless, I'd buy a new one right quick.
Newer MIM guns will be much easier to find parts for well into the future. I believe as we gain experience and round counts, these MIM guns will prove equally and likely more durable than the old guns. I am shooting my old pre-MIM guns less, partly out of concern for the long term parts problem.
I am shooting several newer S&W MIM revolvers that are proving to be, on average, more accurate than their older versions. It's not just the MIM parts. CNC machining, accurate cylinder throating and good timing may have something to do with it, too.
I for one would pay for guns with the best of new and old. But it is not going to happen. I'm just hoping S&W introduces a replacement for my now worn 14-3. MIM parts, lock and so-so blueing, or even stainless, I'd buy a new one right quick.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
Moly eliminates all wear. TS-moly.
whooper333
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MIM Hammer Defect
here is a mim hammer from my 460xvr, gun has less than 100 rounds thru it mostly 45 lc. needless to say it back at smith. i do not believe a forged or machined from billet part would have failed like this. second picture is gouged hammer block bar. i believe it is a stamping. i am considering upgrading to the chrome trigger and hammer, but if it is just a mim part that has been flashed chromed it seems that it would be money not well spent. i have also been told that once the chrome wears thru you are back to mim in the sear area? i asked to be contacted after evaluation by S&W service. does anyone know if the chrome hammer- trigger upgrade is from forged parts?
here is a mim hammer from my 460xvr, gun has less than 100 rounds thru it mostly 45 lc. needless to say it back at smith. i do not believe a forged or machined from billet part would have failed like this. second picture is gouged hammer block bar. i believe it is a stamping. i am considering upgrading to the chrome trigger and hammer, but if it is just a mim part that has been flashed chromed it seems that it would be money not well spent. i have also been told that once the chrome wears thru you are back to mim in the sear area? i asked to be contacted after evaluation by S&W service. does anyone know if the chrome hammer- trigger upgrade is from forged parts?
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You are correct in your assumption that a forged part would not have done this, but chances are a replaced part with an inspection to see if there is something else mechanically wrong with the gun to cause the initial problem will solve the problem and you'll never experience it again. If there is a mechanical issue, a forged part may well have created other problems. I seriously doubt that any parts other than MIM are available.
MIM has been in production for several years and the number of problems from it have been very small in number. The only concern I have with the process is time. Time is something manufacturers can't test for. I collect 1:24 model die cast cars. Many cars made years ago are experiencing what is termed 'paint rash', where the paint is bubbling from reaction to the cast metal beneath it. In severe cases, cars are literally crumbling away. This is something that took years to discover. I hope that MIM parts don't do something 20, 50 or even 100 years from now.
MIM has been in production for several years and the number of problems from it have been very small in number. The only concern I have with the process is time. Time is something manufacturers can't test for. I collect 1:24 model die cast cars. Many cars made years ago are experiencing what is termed 'paint rash', where the paint is bubbling from reaction to the cast metal beneath it. In severe cases, cars are literally crumbling away. This is something that took years to discover. I hope that MIM parts don't do something 20, 50 or even 100 years from now.
SweetMK
Member
I would love to have seen that part first hand,,, in the gun.
Yes, MIM can be blamed, but, there may have been other issues.
I have my degree in metallurgy, so I look at these issues from a different perspective.
(Virginia Tech, Materials Science Engineering,,, as it was called in 1979!!
)buckyjames1
US Veteran
Chiming in on my smith purchases:
1. 617:
cylinder chamber: waiting on my cylinder reamer due to a miss click at brownel's. I ordered a
barrel not a cylinder reamer but, I can only get around 50 rds max through it before complete
lock up. Hell, I can feel 2 holes (with a clean gun) that stick.
Hand: looks completely outta speck but the "skilled" fitter had to file
wayyy more than he should have. Just went ahead and bought a new
one. Adjustable rear site apeture wobbles inside mount. Alot...not
alittle bit
Hammer blocks: take a closer look these days, seems like every
hammer block looks like complete garbage. 617 hammerblock has
pits, dimples, went ahead and ordered another one instead.
2. 620: yeah, dont get me started,
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...75-repost-2-piece-barrel-came-apart-pics.html
3. 586 Classic: Everything seems good to go. looks great, feels great
4. 686+: Everything seems good, feels good, goes bang. solid build
5. 60-10: Probably should be excluded due to being a no lock, older variation. All is good to go on that one so far. Was not bought BNIB
So I am at a 3/5 success rate. 60%!. Done with new products put out by S/W.
*Guess that was more of a rant on Q/C of S/W, not a bust on MIM parts
1. 617:
cylinder chamber: waiting on my cylinder reamer due to a miss click at brownel's. I ordered a
barrel not a cylinder reamer but, I can only get around 50 rds max through it before complete
lock up. Hell, I can feel 2 holes (with a clean gun) that stick.
Hand: looks completely outta speck but the "skilled" fitter had to file
wayyy more than he should have. Just went ahead and bought a new
one. Adjustable rear site apeture wobbles inside mount. Alot...not
alittle bit
Hammer blocks: take a closer look these days, seems like every
hammer block looks like complete garbage. 617 hammerblock has
pits, dimples, went ahead and ordered another one instead.
2. 620: yeah, dont get me started,
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...75-repost-2-piece-barrel-came-apart-pics.html
3. 586 Classic: Everything seems good to go. looks great, feels great
4. 686+: Everything seems good, feels good, goes bang. solid build
5. 60-10: Probably should be excluded due to being a no lock, older variation. All is good to go on that one so far. Was not bought BNIB
So I am at a 3/5 success rate. 60%!. Done with new products put out by S/W.
*Guess that was more of a rant on Q/C of S/W, not a bust on MIM parts
Last edited:
iPac
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I agree with this statement and don't understand why more people don't do it.
If you don't like the stuff S&W is currently producing, buy something else. Buy from another manufacturer, or the most logical thing, buy an older one from when they were made with pride.
I would personally buy a Colt. Yeah they don't make them anymore, but they sure are easy to find and you will see what quality is.
Or better yet, since this is the S&W site, buy an older P&R Smith. They are readily available for darn near same price as a new counterpart. By no means is anyone stuck or obligated to buy a new production.
I don't like the new manufacturing techniques anymore than the next guy. I am one of those "never evers". What do I do? Exactly what I mention above, and buy vintage.
whooper333
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MIM failure
yes, i believe a author was asking for an actual mim failure so here is one i can speak first hand of. something caused the hammed to chip out like it did. due to the gouging on the hammer block bar it should be the first thing suspected, or vise-a-versa. this damaged occurred at first live fire session of the revolver owner. it should be noted, this is the second time back to s&w. the first return was due to cosmetic defects on the barrel shroud and ejector rod. i commented to a friend i was considering keeping the revolver with the defects as is, because the trigger was so nice. i had not live fired the gun at that point, but dry firing with snap caps the 460xvr was right there with my 629-4. i told my buddy i hope they don't mess up this trigger, that is where i made my first mistake. when the gun returned smith did such a excellent job with the cosmetic issues i sent an at-a-boy to customer service. i did notice however during practice fire with snap caps the trigger had lost something. after the first range session the previous pictures tell the story of what was lost.
back in the 70's i can remember going into a die cast plant. next to the die cast machine there was a molten pot of aluminum and zinc. the machine clamp would close the multi cavity mold and the machine operator would scoop a lattel of the zinc-aluminum concoction from the molten pot and pour it into a shot cylinder, the cylinder would slam forward. not long after the mold would open and out came the for-runner of a mim part, or if your into die cast cars, a miniature car.
during the same period i also recall being in a powder metal plant. there a machine had a vertical single cavity mold filled with powder then a male half to the cavity would close and under very high pressure the powder was compressed and turned into metal. after that i believe it went to a oven for heating process. this is more likely the start of mim. if i am not mistaken carbide inserts are manufactured in a process like this.
i will advise what smith tells me the cause of failure is, that is if they share that information with me. otherwise hoorah for 629-4 still going and going, no mim there.
yes, i believe a author was asking for an actual mim failure so here is one i can speak first hand of. something caused the hammed to chip out like it did. due to the gouging on the hammer block bar it should be the first thing suspected, or vise-a-versa. this damaged occurred at first live fire session of the revolver owner. it should be noted, this is the second time back to s&w. the first return was due to cosmetic defects on the barrel shroud and ejector rod. i commented to a friend i was considering keeping the revolver with the defects as is, because the trigger was so nice. i had not live fired the gun at that point, but dry firing with snap caps the 460xvr was right there with my 629-4. i told my buddy i hope they don't mess up this trigger, that is where i made my first mistake. when the gun returned smith did such a excellent job with the cosmetic issues i sent an at-a-boy to customer service. i did notice however during practice fire with snap caps the trigger had lost something. after the first range session the previous pictures tell the story of what was lost.
back in the 70's i can remember going into a die cast plant. next to the die cast machine there was a molten pot of aluminum and zinc. the machine clamp would close the multi cavity mold and the machine operator would scoop a lattel of the zinc-aluminum concoction from the molten pot and pour it into a shot cylinder, the cylinder would slam forward. not long after the mold would open and out came the for-runner of a mim part, or if your into die cast cars, a miniature car.
during the same period i also recall being in a powder metal plant. there a machine had a vertical single cavity mold filled with powder then a male half to the cavity would close and under very high pressure the powder was compressed and turned into metal. after that i believe it went to a oven for heating process. this is more likely the start of mim. if i am not mistaken carbide inserts are manufactured in a process like this.
i will advise what smith tells me the cause of failure is, that is if they share that information with me. otherwise hoorah for 629-4 still going and going, no mim there.
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whooper333
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S&W quality issues
i get ipac point that no one is forcing people to buy S&W firearms. however i have recently purchased 3 new S&W revolvers. i have taken transfer of 2 the third was sent back for another it was too messed up to accept. maybe they want out of the metal gun business, i dont know it just seems like qc on the revolver side is lacking. i am having a hard time accepting that my fellow american workers are at fault here. perhaps it unreasonable quota's from the company, morale, or some other problem. whatever it is smith needs to sort it out. here is a quote from their website.
Globally recognized manufacturer of quality firearms for enthusiasts, hunters, collectors and professionals; since 1852, dedicated to the tradition of quality, reliability, performance and innovation.
seems to me if you are going to talk the talk you should walk the walk.
i get ipac point that no one is forcing people to buy S&W firearms. however i have recently purchased 3 new S&W revolvers. i have taken transfer of 2 the third was sent back for another it was too messed up to accept. maybe they want out of the metal gun business, i dont know it just seems like qc on the revolver side is lacking. i am having a hard time accepting that my fellow american workers are at fault here. perhaps it unreasonable quota's from the company, morale, or some other problem. whatever it is smith needs to sort it out. here is a quote from their website.
Globally recognized manufacturer of quality firearms for enthusiasts, hunters, collectors and professionals; since 1852, dedicated to the tradition of quality, reliability, performance and innovation.
seems to me if you are going to talk the talk you should walk the walk.
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S&W MIM Explanation
I appreciate Herbs response. As a mechanical engineer, the explanation of S&W’s decision to make triggers and hammers from MIM makes sense. It employs the same logic that companies make when trying to improve their manufacturability.
For most the issue with MIM is the looks. I believe that for those that see their firearm as a tool, they are getting a better and more consistent product with MIM. For many though, firearms are pieces of artwork and want a better looking trigger and hammer to match the beauty of the rest of the gun. I love S&W revolvers regardless of the triggerand hammer process. But I get the gripe!
I appreciate Herbs response. As a mechanical engineer, the explanation of S&W’s decision to make triggers and hammers from MIM makes sense. It employs the same logic that companies make when trying to improve their manufacturability.
For most the issue with MIM is the looks. I believe that for those that see their firearm as a tool, they are getting a better and more consistent product with MIM. For many though, firearms are pieces of artwork and want a better looking trigger and hammer to match the beauty of the rest of the gun. I love S&W revolvers regardless of the triggerand hammer process. But I get the gripe!
I've got no dog in the MIM parts argument, but why can't you guys (who apparently DO read this forum) dump the lock?
DonD
Member
Oh, right, S&W only makes unreliable junk, none of those revolvers are any good, right?
I've had 4 Model 500s, all fine guns with excellent triggers, two keepers remain. I have a S&W M&P9 2.0, three trips to the range with a wide variety of ammo, 250 flawless rounds downrange. Don
DonD
Member
Good old Herb Belin. Back in 2003 I was looking hard to get one of the brand new Model 500s. Wasn't having any luck. Called S&W and surprisingly, got him on the phone, why the telephone routing let it go to him I don't know but it did.
I explained what was happening, he listened and said that if I couldn't find one soon, call him and he'd get one for me. Excellent customer service right? Found one about a week later. Don
I explained what was happening, he listened and said that if I couldn't find one soon, call him and he'd get one for me. Excellent customer service right? Found one about a week later. Don
hkcavalier
US Veteran
I have no issues with MIM from a purely materials or mechanical perspective. I don't care for the IL.
From a historical perspective, I enjoy shooting S&Ws I know were built by real craftsmen.
It's a similar argument for a 1965 Mustang vs. a 2018. The latter is more modern and consistent, the former has soul.
From a historical perspective, I enjoy shooting S&Ws I know were built by real craftsmen.
It's a similar argument for a 1965 Mustang vs. a 2018. The latter is more modern and consistent, the former has soul.
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