This guy thinks 9mm IS big enough for self defense!

When I hear people say that 7-8 rounds of 45 is better than 16 rounds of 9mm I wonder how many fire fights they have been in.
If you look at police shooting stats, there is a hugh difference between the number of shots fired and hits.
If I'm bouncing and weav'n shooting at someone else that is jumping around I think I would stick with the motto= "A hit with a 22cal. is better than a loud miss with a 44mag."
The few friends I know that have really been in eyeball to eyeball gun fights ( military duty and on the streets back home)all say they didn't have time to line up the sights like you would at the range.
So a shot with just a 20% hit probability might be the shot that saves your life, so you take it.
And hope that IF you miss you still have more ammo to keep firing.
So with that said ,,, what do I carry?
- 5 shot model 642!-
 
It does rekindle the nagging doubts in my subconscious... I only got 5 shots.

I'd hate to be on the recieving end of that volume of fire from a BG with a high capacity 9mm.
 
i learned this past weekend at a IDPA match that im not as good of a shot as i thought i was. I have a 9mm M&P, and moving wile shooting is very hard. so i am glad mine has 17+1. I was only allowed to use 10+1 in the chamber with the first mag and 10 in the others. if i did not stop to take aim it was hard to hit were i wanted. I did how ever not have to change mags like my brotherin law. he has a 1911 8 rounds. it seamed like he was constantly changing mags. and he did run out on one match so guess what 2 bad guys that could have goten him. thats out of 3 mags .. so my 2cents is placement of the bullet, gun controle, and the ability to move and shoot duck and cover.. if you can do this very well it dont matter what kind of bullet you have. he actually said he liked the stoping power of his big gun. and i needed to get rid of my squirt gun. i asked him to stand over there and let me shoot him with my squirt gun. HMMM he would not do it for some reason.. :))) and how stressed out has a BIG BIG part in it. I can take aim and hit nails at 10 yards with my gun. but during the match I shot everything but the bad guys. Go figure.. just my 2 cents
 
A hole is a hole is a hole. Put enough holes in a man and he will calm down. Put them in the right place and he will calm down more quickly. Put a lot of holes in him and he will calm down quicker than if you just put a single hole in him. When in doubt, put more holes in him till he is suitably calmed down enough to lie down and stop causing problems. A 9mm is a fine hole maker. So is a .40 S&W. If one has a .45ACP handy, they work well. There are many instances in which the lowly .38 Special has proven to be an effective hole maker. And even a .22 LR will work... if you can shoot.
 
J.P.60 said:
Alas, yes... we have become a society of shooters which measures success in the number of bullets we can place into a bad guy - rather than emphasizing the ease of ending it all with an accurate shot from the neanderthal .45acp. Guns sell, today, based upon magazine capacity and the number of contraptions one can hang off it.

Thank you, but, I am old; carried a Commander for +35 years; and have to pee a lot. My intent is to simply kill the bad guy with shot one or a double tap... and then go pee. I have no time for gunfights or go-zillion round magazines.

This is not to say 9mm won't get the job done, as it seems to be working quite well in every city neighborhood and all over the world. Gang bangers and drug runners love it just as much as LEO's and others.
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I have to laugh at people that poopoo the 9mm as small and weak and then talk up the 45ACP like it spits out some kind of magic voodoo bullets. Face it, in the big picture they are both too weak. They are handguns cartriges.

If the bad guys called ahead what would you really pull out of the safe? A 12ga or an AR.

Everything about guns is a compromise. With handguns we give up power for size.
 
I don't know why so many put the 9mm down. Personally, I have nothing chambered for it, thus I don't use it, but I certainly would not want to take one (or 15) to the chest with it.

My carry platform is 12 rounds of 357- 7 in a 686, 5 in an M&P 340. I sometimes wonder about getting something that carries more rounds, but revolvers are what I "know" and shoot best, so I stick with them.
 
It's fun to watch is all. Who cares what calibre it is. I don't think he was trying to make a scientific or tactical statement. Just having some fun.
 
If you want to get really technical, the chances of hitting a BG with one or two well-placed shots that will stop 'em dead in their tracks is very small. Moving target, adrenaline dump, evasion on your part (if needed) and shooting proficiency to begin with are all factors that cannot be replicated unless you are in that situation. Recent stats have shown that police (those supposedly trained in the use of firearms) only shoot and kill the BG 22% of the time they actually fire. If the LEOs are receiving any kind of fire in return, the number drops to 9%.

Realistically speaking, in a SD situation, you want multiple holes around the center mass area. Assuming you don't get an instant heart or head shot (which we now know to be unlikely) you want as many holes as possible so the BG will bleed out and go into shock. Two holes are better than 1. 3 holes are better than 2, etc. Bigger holes are better than smaller ones. Keep on shooting until the threat is gone.

Then go puke. It's going to be messy.
 
Entertaining video.
Entertaining thread.
Arguments that will never be settled.
What more could a Redneck Curmudgeon ask for on a Saturday that's too wet & cold to go to the range and the NASCAR race not starting until suppertime? :D
 
9mm will kill no doubt about it. Shoot placement is most important. If your off on your shot though and hit someone off to the side instead of the center a bigger bullet had a better chance of taking him out of the game.
 
Wow, how many times in print has the 9mm vs. Big Bore Whatever been discussed?

I think he was just showing what can be done with a high capacity 9mm, I don't think it was meant to convey he would just stand there and empty the gun at a bad guy.

My daily carry is a Ruger SP-101, a five shot .357. I don't feel in the slightest that I'm undergunned. However, in the past, I've carried a Browning Hi-Power, and I didn't feel undergunned with that, either.

I think it all boils down to having confidence in yourself first, and confidence in your weapon of choice second.
 
Well, we have another video of a guy who can shoot into a steel target with rapid speed and accuracy. What he proved was that he is a good shot. Wahoo. All that he proved to me is that his gun can fire into a target and make a pinging noise. I see alot of guys I work with who are about his age that go to the range and do the exact same thing. They get their hands on something with a high capacity magazine and they think it is the greatest thing in the world to empty it faster than a junkie can find a vein. I have long since believed that shot placement is the key to good marksmanship. Someone mentioned Jerry Miculek. Jerry shoots for competiton, this guy is trying to get a point across about the 9mm and personal defense. Is the 9mm ok for personal defense? That's his choice, I look at its track record and say no. Granted I carry a .38 Special on occasion, but I know that I can hit what I aim at with it, and I also have my own loads that I worked up for it. I also carry a .357 and a .41 Magnum, also with the loads that I have worked up for it. I have also carried .44 Specials, .44 Magnums, .45 Colts and .45 ACP's. I practice with them like any other gun. I practice the way I have been taught. Double taps work great, hip shots work great, and I don't think I need to empty the entire gun into a target to prove my point, that's just wasting ammo.
If this guy wants to prove how good the 9mm is instead of his shooting abilities, maybe he should go out and do some real ballistics testing with it, because even my .22 pistol can make pinging noises on a target too.
 
5906fan said:
seems the German Army did fairly well with 9mm sub-guns to the tune of around a million or so Russkis at Stalingrad.
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Oh yes, they did. Bundesarchiv Picture 183-E0406-0022-011
Sorry, as a trained historian whose family was involved in the Stalingrad on both sides could not pass your comment. It was Luftwafe that performed admirably there: Germans cleaned out 90% of the city, but lost it all in the bloodiest house-to-house battle. Here is an example

German is on the left, Russky is on the right:

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-E0406-0022-011%2C_Russland%2C_deutscher_Kriegsgefangener.jpg


And does not the lowly 38 special equal to 9mm Browning?
 
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and well indeed Hitler lost a million of the best troops he had there also, casualties and captured. few returned home, IIRC about 6K out of about 100K captured.
both sides made use of 9mm subguns/carbines.
a nephew and myself own 9mm carbines, I load some +P loads (his kel-tec even prefers them to regular factory loads) that do well in them.
awhile back we stacked up mud-crusted and frozen chunks of 2X6 spruce 5 deep and he shot a round into the stack the 124gr hp slug stopped in the 5th piece and some of the 2x's split down the length of.
 
David LaPell said:
Well, we have another video of a guy who can shoot into a steel target with rapid speed and accuracy. What he proved was that he is a good shot. Wahoo. All that he proved to me is that his gun can fire into a target and make a pinging noise.

I have long since believed that shot placement is the key to good marksmanship.

Granted I carry a .38 Special on occasion, but I know that I can hit what I aim at with it
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Can you clarify your position? The video shows a guy that can hit what he aims at, and can deliver an amazing amount of firepower accurately. You seem unimpressed, yet you say you carry a .38 and can hit what you aim at.

I'm not trying to insult you or belittle you in any way. I'd like to know what your thoughts are. Is he an idiot showing his skills with a 9mm but you carrying a .38 that you can hit a target with is better? I don't understand. :confused:

Now I'll carry a .380 (if it ever gets here :mad:) and I believe shot placement is king. I believe more shots are good (big mags) and if those shots are on target I believe you demonstrate the ability to align the sights and control the weapon. I believe someone that can do this quickly and accurately has an advantage over someone that can only hit a target after 5 seconds of grip adjustment and breathing exercises. I believe if this guy had to duck and run, then jump up and take a couple quick shots he is demonstrating that he can acquire a target quickly and follow up with multiple shots.

I do not understand anyone bashing what I think is a fine display of accuracy and control. I cannot shoot any of my large caliber pistols like this yet, but I'll work on it.
 
I think the demonstration was how effectively a 9mm can be employed, and then the close up of the previously clean target shows what happens on the other end, I don't think tactics were high on his list to display. What I find myself asking in discussions like this is, do I want to find out first hand how effective a 9 is, personally? No thanks, nor any of my rim fires either. But there is something to be said for volume of fire. Some of you may remember having to stand at attention and scream "when fired upon, return fire, gain fire superiority, and maintain fire superiority." Flapjack
 
Lost Lake said:
Can you clarify your position? The video shows a guy that can hit what he aims at, and can deliver an amazing amount of firepower accurately. You seem unimpressed, yet you say you carry a .38 and can hit what you aim at.

I'm not trying to insult you or belittle you in any way. I'd like to know what your thoughts are. Is he an idiot showing his skills with a 9mm but you carrying a .38 that you can hit a target with is better? I don't understand. :confused:

Now I'll carry a .380 (if it ever gets here :mad:) and I believe shot placement is king. I believe more shots are good (big mags) and if those shots are on target I believe you demonstrate the ability to align the sights and control the weapon. I believe someone that can do this quickly and accurately has an advantage over someone that can only hit a target after 5 seconds of grip adjustment and breathing exercises. I believe if this guy had to duck and run, then jump up and take a couple quick shots he is demonstrating that he can acquire a target quickly and follow up with multiple shots.

I do not understand anyone bashing what I think is a fine display of accuracy and control. I cannot shoot any of my large caliber pistols like this yet, but I'll work on it.
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Our local instructor say there are three key factors to defense with a handgun.
1. bullet placement
2. bullet placement
3. bullet placement

Remember 9 mm was enough to take out Tupac and Biggie.
 
Not sure why everyone is looking so hard to criticize this kid for everthing under the sun. This kid has a talent and skill he has refined through practice. A lot of people on this forum are reading waaaaayyyyyy too much into this, the whole video was suppose to be sarcastic and to show what a 9mm gun and a proficient shooter can do.....he was not trying to demonstrate tactics or start a debate on legal issues of deadly force. By him dumping a mag into a steel plate is not the same as him saying "if I ever have to use this gun to save my life I am going to keep shooting the person untill my mag runs out". I don't see anyone on here ever busting Jerry Miculik's chops when he does speed demonstrations.....or question his tactics. It is dissapointing to me to see so many people so eager to jump all over someone and offer non constructive criticism. This is the first time I have ever visited this particular forum and if this is the kind of silly things people sit around and argue about then I'll probably make a point to avoid this one.

too those of you who were decent enough to give the man his due, this post wasn't aimed at you.
 
RightWinger said:
Not sure why everyone is looking so hard to criticize this kid for everthing under the sun. This kid has a talent and skill he has refined through practice. A lot of people on this forum are reading waaaaayyyyyy too much into this, the whole video was suppose to be sarcastic and to show what a 9mm gun and a proficient shooter can do.....he was not trying to demonstrate tactics or start a debate on legal issues of deadly force. By him dumping a mag into a steel plate is not the same as him saying "if I ever have to use this gun to save my life I am going to keep shooting the person untill my mag runs out". I don't see anyone on here ever busting Jerry Miculik's chops when he does speed demonstrations.....or question his tactics. It is dissapointing to me to see so many people so eager to jump all over someone and offer non constructive criticism. This is the first time I have ever visited this particular forum and if this is the kind of silly things people sit around and argue about then I'll probably make a point to avoid this one.

too those of you who were decent enough to give the man his due, this post wasn't aimed at you.
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Excellent post, said much more eloquently than I could say it. Admire the skill the man shows and leave it at that. :)
 
With modern ammo, a 9mm may be a viable self defense caliber. I still prefer something that begins with a "4."
 
Strato said:
Excellent point though I think a lot of people are too philosophical and judgemental to enjoy any display for what it is. Also I'd just like to add IMO in any defense situation reguardless of legalities the first objective is stopping the threat. No matter how many hits a perp has taken if he is armed and has movement he still poses a major threat. I'd much rather have to explain why my actions were neccessary to preserve my life than to have someone deliver my ulogy.
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Very well said.
 
I love the 45 for stopping power but with proper load selection and lot's of practice a 9mm is more than adequate for self defense, it's the people who can't put the first round on target that think it isn't. Although with that being said my MP days training with the CT state police really instilled the modicum that more kinetic energy is better at stopping bad guys faster. I think the 9mm got a bad rep due to fmj's used as a self defense load.
 
Although some have illuded to it, there hasn't been a whole lot about being shot at, while addressing a threat. And the idea posed that enough training will dictate your reaction in a deadly force situation is Dumbo's Feather, as far as My experience goes. Training and practice is great, but when that big shot of juice hits your central nervous system, no one can guarentee much of anything, and that truth should be an element in any good traing program, in my view. Mental preparedness is at least as important as the mechanics of gun handling in my view, and it should be practiced together to be the most effective that it can. A very simple example of this is the much talked about pop up targets that showed up on military gun ranges durring the Viet Nam War. It seems that when green rifle companys in WWII first came under fire, only apx 10% of the troups reportedly, initially, returned fire. Studies done in actual combat by people who specialize in human behavior resulted in, ammong many other things, the pop up target, and the three critical human responses that it illicits: Stimulous, Response, and Reinforcement. The target pops up= stimulous, the soldier shoots at the target= response, the target falls=reinforcement. This all happens with targets that look generally like human beings, and after being instilled with some "talk" by trained instructors, where the rules of the "game" are instilled in the "players". This is combined with sessions, usually after exhausting excersise of somne kind (they got lots) where, before being dismissed to colapse somewhere, the troups are made to stand at attention and scream "when fired upon, return fire-gain fire superiority, and maintain fire superiority" for an extended period of time, preferably in a down poor, or blazing heat. Once a human being is "indoctrinated" with Stimulous-Response, and Reinforcement, it stays with them. So, as a result, the findings in Viet Nam were reversed from those typical of WWII. When a green infantry company was first fired upon, 90% returned fire, initially. Unfortunately, those in Viet Nam had to use the "M-16" as redesigned by a former Ford Motor Company bean counter. If that was the only weapon I had access to when I was initially fired upon, I would use it to try to reach my Model 629 no dash 8 3/8's. Flapjack
 
.45 ACP.....


.....because shooting twice is just silly! :)






Needed to throw a little more gas on this fire! ;)




As for the young guys talent, he did draw cleanly and get the first shot on target. The mag change was done in a fairly smooth manner. Dump targets can be fun. That's about all I will say about the video.


WG840
 
I'm gonna tell the DA that when I discovered the BG coming at me I was so scared that I emptied my gun at (notice- at) him.

If there three of them I pray I'll have enough to around.

9mm comes with big magazines.
 
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