Those that Carry a J...Ever Worry that 5 Isn't Enough?

[nyeti]

I carry a 5 shot daily. It is a back up to the 15 round H&K VP9 that is my primary pistol. You are not going to get to pick your fight, and I am paranoid.
With that said,mi have no problem taking a five shot to the mailbox. It is simply rare for me to ever carry a J frame as a primary. It is literally for the times when I don't need a gun.
With all that said,mi hope I can live in a place at some point in life where I would feel totally comfortable with a J frame or Colt D frame as a my primary. I am just not there yet. The last off duty encounter I was in was an attempted robbery by a 5 man Crip robbery crew. This was taking my wife's SUV to the drive through car wash in a nice area. You don't get to pick the encounter and I was glad I had a Glock 17 instead of a J frame.

 

[MarkAlt]

Funny you mention this...

I can only pocket carry. Shorts and a t-shirt, so a j-frame rides with me always.

Finally got my wife to the range. Of course, everyone was shooting plastic. 15-17 rounds, 2-3 second pause, 15-17 again etc. then, my wife tries our full size M&P40 LE trade-in. Surprisingly, she shoots and handles it well. Heck, I shot it well. 200 rounds of mixed ammo and it ate everything.

I'm old school. Never a fan of anything without wood and steel. My wife can't budge the slide on most 1911s. The M&P was no problem and I was impressed.

So, I still only carry a j-frame. But, more and more, I realize we're living in a hi-cap world. If I could conceal it, the M&P (maybe a Shield) would be primary with the j-frame as a BUG.

Just my opinion.

 

[wesnellans]

FWIW. I was prey to the influence of many forum members (NOT on here, lest I offend... prematurely ) in feeling I needed to carry at LEAST a 15-round 9mm plus 2 spare mags at all times.

Feh. Thankfully grew out of that stage mentally.

I don't live in a high-crime area, I don't frequent bad places to be, and I'm looking for a way to AVOID fights, not get in them.

So, went from a G19 with 2 spare mags and 3 knives stashed about my person down to a J-frame, 2 speed strips, and 1 knife.

'Cause.

That being said, NO WAY I'd carry a semi-auto without at least one spare mag, given that "bottom feeders" tend to malfunction most due to mag/ammo problems. A spare mag for one of them only makes sense, high enough round count on board or not.

 

[Old TexMex]

Hey all,

I'm just a bit curious about this and thought I'd ask.

For those of you that almost exclusively carry a J-Frame, have you ever had the thought or feeling that 5 rounds might not be enough?

I know that the overwhelming majority of encounters where guns are used the number of rounds fired isn't very many, probably not higher than 5. I've got some reading to do on that subject though so I might get a better handle on it soon.

These days these criminals run in packs. You know what I mean? My friend that runs a convenience store that I go in all the time was robbed by 3 and all had pistols. The lead guy held him on the floor with the barrel to his head behind his ear. Kicked him around a few times too while he had him down there.

Thoughts.

Thanks

Nalajr

Running a store, I'd refer to that watchmaker who was involved in numerous shootouts w/ multiple robbers. He kept a slew of handguns placed within reach under the counter.
When I'm working, (in U.S.)my j is a backup to a CZ 75. Down south I have to rely on my partner who's licensed to carry .
Just "walking around", my 37 and 38, one pocket, one IWB.

Stay safe.

 

[quinn]

If I haven't solved my problem with 5... the probability that 2 or 3 more will solve it is pretty low in my estimation. 340PD for me.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Don't pull the trigger unless you know for
certain that it is an A hit. J frame good for 5
bad guys.

With all due respect to the above poster, this post is a load of ****.

I know for a fact that too often, 5 rounds isn't enough. I sometimes carry a J frame, but and a couple of reloads is the bare minimum. That is my "no gun" loadout. Pressure washing dad's deck the other day in shorts and a T shirt, that's when that kind of loadout becomes a comfortable norm. Usually, I have a Glock 26 with 12 rounds on board, and a 17 round spare magazine.

Dirtbags travel in packs. I generally consider 5 rounds from a .38 enough to handle one, and MAYBE 2 opponents before it's time for a reload or other means of defense.

 

[Buckingham]

In the analysis of bad guy attacks/robberies it usually seems that the miscreants beat feet as soon as possible (if still able) when unexpected lead starts flying. So no, I don't think five rounds is too little in most cases. Having said that, I'm thinking of adding my LCRx inside waistband to my normal Airweight pocket carry.

 

[handejector]

Just carry two for a New York reload.

You have to carry FOUR if you want to reload the New York reload.

No charge- this is free today.

 

[BB57]

Decker has the stats right, but Chief38 is on the mark about where the priorities should be.

I posted something lengthy here (or maybe on another forum) about the FBI uniform crime report data on law enforcement officers killed and assaulted, the weapons used and the ranges involved, as well as the FBI stats indicating most of their agent involved shootouts (which are probably more relevant than overall LEO stats due to plain versus uniformed differences) where 70% of the shoots took place at a range of 3 yards or less, with fewer than 5 rounds expended.


I won't get into that again other than to just point out that the vast majority of the time, self defense shoots involve one assailant, are over in under 5 seconds at ranges under 5 yards involving less than five rounds fired in self defense. There are exceptions of course, but those exceptions are much more likely to happen with LEOs who have jobs that require them to go looking for trouble in dark and scary places, apprehend people, etc. As an armed citizen your fist line of defense is to recognize problems before they start and avoid the situation, by either choosing a better route, or if you have no other options by establishing eye contact and letting the that know you see him. Most of the time, that's enough to divert them toward an easier target. The end result is that the percentage of single assailant encounters is probably closer to 90-95% for armed citizens.

And as noted by someone above, most of the time, just producing a firearm stops the assailant in his tracks. That's one of the facts that actually works against the concealed carry camp when it comes to media and statistics as the anti-gun camp will ignore the methodological issues related to the sample being referenced. They will demonstrate the very low number of situations where a concealed carry permit holder actually fired in self defense, being totally unaware of, or just totally ignoring all the reported and unreported instances where an assault was averted when the firearm was either drawn or just made known to the assailant. That is however, the best possible outcome from an armed citizen faced with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury and it's also the most common outcome.

----

Now...you can certainly gear up for post apocalyptic, multiple assailant, terrorists invading the mall kinds of scenarios and go forth every day with a 15+1 high capacity semi-auto and 2 spare mags, confident that you'll (just barely) stave off certain defeat with 46 rounds available.

But on the other hand, you'll be carrying around 2.5 pounds of handgun and another 2 pounds of spare magazines, along with all the other every day carry paraphernalia the chronically over-prepared feel the need to bring along (tactical light, at least 2 knives, trauma kit, signal mirror, secret decoder ring, etc).

Where that all falls apart is when the SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) is pregnant and informs you of the immediate need to get up and go down to the local stab and grab for some Ben and Jerry's ice cream after you've been home log enough to more or less settle in. You'll be less inclined to carry all that stuff until it's time to go to bed, and once having taken it all of, you'll be less inclined to put it back on just for a quick trip for ice cream

Over time, you'll find the number of times you leave home without it increases, either due to a desire not to have to dress around it, or due to a sore back from trying to carry it around all day. Sooner or later you downsize to a much more sustainable level of EDC. I recommend you just save yourself the trouble and jump to that point now.

The other downside of excessive EDC is that you can make those guys from 200 yards away as they have 1) an unseasonably warm cover garment, 2) overly loose fitting clothing, and 3) an "instructor belt" that absolutely no one actually wears unless they are packing, or wanting to look like an operator. Dress like that and you're just as much a target as someone doing open carry.

-----

I'm personally very happy with an easily concealed under normal clothing J-frame that I put on in the morning when I get up and then forget about until I get undressed to go to bed in the evening.

Even though ever having to use it will be a very small probability event in the first place (particularly if you have good SA and some common sense), and that encountering multiple assailants is a very small probability on top of the already small probability, I'll still usually add a speed loader to add another 5 rounds. It's light, easy to carry and with a slip over carrier, it's also low profile.

 

[buckeyejake]

Yea. Aimed fire wins fights ,not lead in the air .

Jake

 

[loknload]

My 36 gets carried with two speed loaders as well! My Glock 27and my LCP both get carried with one extra mag.
I figure for personal protection that should see me through.

 

[kthom]

What I'm about to say proves nothing. Each of us needs to be comfortable with our own choice, for our own reasons. I was a very active LEO for many years prior to the time when departments began transitioning to semi auto service weapons. In that time, I learned that one can never ever tell what the circumstances may be when a weapon is needed. I also learned that in the great majority of circumstances, one had to depend on whatever weapon one could reach out and touch immediately. There were times when a potential situation could be recognized before I left my howl car and which could need something other than what was on my belt. I had a shotgun and a rifle at hand in the car, and if the circumstances indicated, I left the car with one or the other of those. But if I had no indication I "needed" the rifle or the shotgun, then I had at hand my service revolver for the most part. I lived my life depending on six rounds, plus the twelve extras carried in the loop loader that was dictated as part of my uniform gear. I could reload twice under those circumstances, and because of hours of practice, I could do that about as quickly as it could be done.

I sometimes also carried a five shot revolver in a coat pocket during cold weather when a coat was indicated, and I approached many vehicles with my hand on that snubby without ever exposing it. If all appeared "normal" after reaching the vehicle and making contact with the occupants, then I removed my hand from the pocket and continued with business. That is a different situation compared to what we who carry concealed must deal with. There are some similarities such as keeping our eyes and ears open at all times to recognize potentially dangerous situations. In the concealed carry mode today, if I recognize such a situation in time, I can usually remove myself from it and avoid the confrontation. But if I am not paying attention, I can walk in beyond the point of no return. As a working LEO, I had to approach those vehicles, alone I might add and mostly miles away from any backup, but today, I have a choice most of the time about where and when I go. The person carrying the gun and their state of alertness and awareness is far more important than the number of rounds available for immediate use.

I can say that in all those years, I was fortunate never to need to reload to finish a situation where I did not have cover and time to do so. I always replaced fired rounds as soon as it was safe to do so in case something should change after the initial confrontation. No sense having a partially loaded firearm if you can have a fully loaded one. So today, I carry at least one reload for whatever I'm carrying, sometimes two.

Nothing is guaranteed. If we knew we were going to need 50 rounds of ammo to finish a situation where we were going, why on earth would we go there? So we make our best guess about what we might get by with in the majority of encounters. Statistical historical data indicates that in the very large majority of the time, five or six shots, correctly and effectively applied, will suffice to provide the protection we need when we are out and about. Being prepared and supplied for the most likely scenarios is about the best we can do. My preparations for an invasion of my home or an attack on my vehicle while I and my family are still inside is much different than what I can reasonably and comfortably prepare for when I am out in public with only what I have on my person at hand.

Extra ammo is always good, but if it is not within immediate reach, it's not nearly as much good. Getting back to where the extra ammo is stored or carried takes time, but carrying an ammo can of ammo around is pretty difficult to do even if you aren't worried about advertising that fact.

We all know rounds fired that don't hit the intended target aren't very effective. Whatever you carry, you must be ready and willing to use it and be able to use it effectively while under great stress. I can tell you that when some one points a gun at you, especially unexpectedly, and maybe fires it at you, you will have an adrenalin dump beyond belief. And you'll be lucky to be able to perform any activity well. Or maybe you will just freeze and lock up. Until it happens, none of us know exactly what our response will be or how well we will be able to perform it. And the only way you really get practice and experience with that situation is to be in them, more than once! NOT something one volunteers to do!!

I have complete confidence in five rounds if that's all I've got at hand. Six is good. Nothing wrong at all with having seven or eight or even thirteen. But having more only works if you can comfortably and easily carry them and have immediate access to them, and fire the weapon that carries them well enough to bring and end to the confrontation. Carrying all day long while wearing an LEO uniform and gun belt is entirely different from carrying concealed in reasonably comfortable clothing normally worn in high heat (and humidity) or circumstances require wearing of certain styles of clothing to attend certain kinds of events. That means that sometimes one can carry more, and occasionally, one must carry less (gun and ammo!) if you choose to attend or be there. My greatest time of concern was in serious cold weather when a heavy coat was needed and which covered or complicated my access to my service revolver. Hence, the snubby in an exterior pocket!

Having any weapon beats having nothing. Being able to effectively use the weapon you choose to have at hand is even more important, along with being ready and willing to use it when and if the need arises. When you carry every day, all day long, it's easy to forget about what you carry. You take it for granted if you are not very careful. That's dangerous.

I've said all this to tell you that for me personally, I have never felt unprepared with five, and never have felt that I was significantly better off with six. I always felt more at ease with my hand on five in my pocket than with six that was hindered by my heavy winter coat. And yes, I felt better knowing that I had a backup at hand that was quicker to get into action than a reload could be done. I always have a backup in my vehicle, but I am not always in or near my vehicle. Even if I'm standing outside it with the doors closed, that backup is pretty far away!! I dunno if these thoughts help anyone, but I believe they are worthy of thought and consideration as YOU make YOUR OWN choice about what you believe will give you the kind of protection you need if you decide to carry a firearm for personal protection. I say this, if you carry a weapon, carry one all the time, not just when you think you might need one. It's worthless if it cannot be reached and touched without moving your feet!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[eb07]

How many shots have you fired in the past?

I have been carrying concealed since 1992 when I was stationed in Florida. So that's 23 years between Arizona, Texas, and Florida.

In that time I have carried in order:

Browning Hi- Power 9mm
Glock 27 .40
Springfield 1911
Glock 17 9mm
Glock 29 SF 10mm

Since about 2008 I got sick of carrying bulky firearms and magazines.

I mostly carry either a Charter Bulldog .44, Colt Cobra .38, Ruger LCR 357, Beretta Nano 9mm or Keltec P3AT 380. ( and a few other misc ones I tried and got rid of) All Lightweight.

In that 23 years of concealed carry, I have never had to draw and or fire my firearm.

I did however need to use my house gun around 93ish, the Browning HP at the time, to stop a home break in by two misguided south floridians whose lives apparently matter more than mine lately. I fired a total of one shot. They found the bullet later sitting in the rib cage of youth #1 who on pure adrenaline made it three blocks from where I lived. Youth #2 disappeared into the concrete jungle.

If I was on duty, where I had to go into the danger every day, you bet I would carry a hicap such as a Glock 17.

But as a civilian I practice certain things and it keeps me pretty clear of trouble. I wrote about it here:

https://thedesertsedge.wordpress.com/2013/08/14/why-my-carry-setup-is-lightweight/

The panic lately has been ISIS, active shooters, oh my god!! Honestly you have a better chance of getting attacked by a dog or a misguided youth. Or dying on the way to work in your car. I won't live my life by fear. That's what they want. I will probably get hit by lightning first.


When I am rural (where I live) I always have a rifle in the truck with me. Especially when I am on my second property which is way out in the boonies. Why? I live in rural Arizona, you just never know what meth lab, drug deal, coyote, or other miscreant you are going to run into down the next wash or over the next hill thanks to the lax border policies. Now the armed lookouts are operating as far in as 100miles.... that's the official word I bet it's more. A lot of people on the run end up in tents or RV's out in the desert here because contact with LEO is rare. The desert is a perfect place to hideout. A rifle is much better than a handgun in those situations. I have had my encounters with some shady people in the desert that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I am more worried about them than ISIS or active shooters off their prozac. Glad I had a rifle with me just in case. Thankfully I never had to use it, but now with the new magazine capacity laws, I can do some yote hunting as an added bonus with my self defense rifle without having to carry a lo-cap.

So in my opinion, if you practice and train with your 5. Are proficient, not only at the static range punching paper, but also one handed on the move then I think you are as dangerous if not more dangerous than the guy who carries a hicap and practices maybe four times a year two handed and stationary. You are never too old to take a force on force class or a low light defensive pistol class that incorporates movement. My dad took them with me from time to time before he passed. He was 70 when he took his last one.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

With a J frame, it's not the 5 that bothers me, it's the practical accuracy while in a hurry. My 2" 15 is so much faster & better than lesser guns that it takes some discomfort and perceived lack of threat to get it away from me. A 12, or a SB 37 is definitely slower and less accurate for an aimed shot, at least for me. A 642 is worse. Yet all of them are acceptable for very immediate personal defense against a close target. It's the possible need for a rapidly aimed shot that worries me. After that, Jetloaders or a second gun may do.

I suppose a BHP would be better, but a 15 is easier to carry and to handle.

 

[nyeti]

The key to carrying a J frame, is to live a J frame lifestyle (don't do stupid things, hang out with stupid people or go to stupid places) is a big start. If you live a smart lifestyle built around threat and avoidance of typical target locations, you can get away with the "snubby lifestyle". You also need to have the ability to up gun to multi-opponent guns and true counter-robbery tools when you are outside your bubble that you have control over.

 

[BB57]

With a J frame, it's not the 5 that bothers me, it's the practical accuracy while in a hurry. My 2" 15 is so much faster & better than lesser guns that it takes some discomfort and perceived lack of threat to get it away from me. A 12, or a SB 37 is definitely slower and less accurate for an aimed shot, at least for me. A 642 is worse. Yet all of them are acceptable for very immediate personal defense against a close target. It's the possible need for a rapidly aimed shot that worries me. After that, Jetloaders or a second gun may do.

I suppose a BHP would be better, but a 15 is easier to carry and to handle.

I agree to an extent. I find a steel framed Model 36 or 60 to be comfortable to shoot with a good set of grips (I prefer Hogue Monogrips) even in .357 mag with the Model 60.

In contrast I have no use at all for lightweight J-frames. They are great to carry, but not so great to shoot. The extra 6-7 oz the step frames add does not at the end of the make them noticeably harder to carry, and is more than offset by their improved shoot-ability.

I also practice shooting at 25 yards as well as 5 yards. A steel j-frame will give you one hole groups at 5 yards and the sights will still shoot close to point of aim at 25 yards, where you can expect a 3-4" group even with the short sight radius.

 

[Kid44]

The key to carrying a J frame, is to live a J frame lifestyle (don't do stupid things, hang out with stupid people or go to stupid places) is a big start. If you live a smart lifestyle built around threat and avoidance of typical target locations, you can get away with the "snubby lifestyle". You also need to have the ability to up gun to multi-opponent guns and true counter-robbery tools when you are outside your bubble that you have control over.

If you are doing stupid things, hanging out with stupid people and going to stupid places that pretty much sums it up,
YOU'RE STUPID and a J-frame won't change that.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

"J-frame lifestyle......" I like it.

On my person I carried a Beretta Model 950BS in .25 ACP for twenty years. I often had a K frame in my car but I didn't carry revolvers because that little mousegun went everywhere, totally hidden. I KNEW it was a mousegun with 6 or 7 rounds, I KNEW it lacked the capability of a larger gun but it fit my lifestyle - and concealed carry wasn't legal and I did it anyway. (I know, HORRORS!!!! Who would do that?!?!) Then the world changed......

CHL became legal, I started wearing casual clothing daily, and I already owned a couple of J-frames, including a 642. It was easy to stop carrying the Beretta and switch to pocket carry with a 642 so around ten years ago that's what I did and haven't looked back since.

Is 5 shots enough? On a routine, typical, daily basis, I think it will suffice. I'm not Pollyannish about it - I do keep another J-frame in my car, and I have extra rounds in my briefcase, but when I'm out and about on a typical day all I have is the 5. I'm good with that. Except.....

Now after all those words, I have to admit one exception to the above, and that is in a large crowd that has a slightly better chance of being in danger, and that is at church.

The way I dress in my house of worship allows me to carry a 9mm S&W 6906, 12 rounds, and if I'm inclined, since that gun is in a belt holster, I can carry my 642 as well. We have armed security, they know me, and they know I'm armed. They say hello and at least one will say, "Glad my back up is here."

Other than that one situation, I generally consider 5 rounds more than enough.

And one more thing... where I live, if you look at a number of people in a public area, you are bound to figure that 20% of them are carrying just like you are.

I was recently pulled over by police in a town just north of mine and when I shoed him my CHL he wasn't interested. "Every car in this town has a gun in it" was his remark.

21st century is DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lobster Picnic]

I guess 5 wasn't enough for me. One of the reasons I chose the 351c was the 7-round capacity. The other was the 11-oz weight making it truly pocketable, even in lightweight clothes. Recoil isn't a problem, so I get plenty of practice. .22 Magnum is a compromise but concealed carry is always a trade-off.

 

[ADP3]

If you are worried about an attack by pirate-biker-ghost-alien-cowboy-thug-banshee-ninja-viking-mercenary-outlaw-vampire-zombies then you'll never be able to tote enough hardware to accommodate your perceived threat. Carry what you believe will cover the usual eventuality for the area you'll be in. For me that means a #642 in my pocket with a speed loader more than 90% of the time. The remainder of the time it's a SD9VE carried IWB and an extra mag. I'm not going to carry a P210-Baer-Python-Wilson-Korth-Webley-Zev-Hi Power. If I do have to protect myself or family the police are going to impound my gun until the justice system runs its course. I've seen what guns look like when (and if) the police return them, and I do not want to go through that with anything that I value highly. That is also why I have backups for my carry guns. If one is in an evidence locker then I still have a carry gun while the courts sort things out.

Best Regards,
ADP3