Three price points = three performance levels.

[18DAI]

I went to the local range today. I took along the PC Shorty 45 MKII, the LE Special order 4516-3 that was my plainclothes duty gun for several years and my early production 457 that I carry at my part time job in the LGS.

As you might expect, the Shorty 45 MKII was the accuracy champ. It grouped 230 ball and 230 JHPs into sub 3 inch groups out to 25 yards. Several times at 15 yards it threw 3 rounds through the same hole.

The 4516-3 was a close second place. I wouldn't want to live on the difference. It was easier/faster to get back on target. Whether that was due to it's weight or all the time I have behind it is debatable.

The 457 was "combat accurate". It shot a few 4 inch groups at the 25 yard line and mostly 3 to 4 inch groups at 15 yards. It would benefit from the new sights that I really need to have BMCM install. I just have not parked the pistol long enough to ship him the slide. It is now a priority, for me.

Combat drills - two rounds to the body, one to the head, as fast as you can find the sight picture and roll the trigger, were shot a 3 feet and 7 feet. All were A hits and all were shot with the 457. Satisfactory performance although all my shots were slightly to the right of POA. Banging the cheap plastic sight off of car doors and counters at the shop are probably contibuting factors. And too much finger on thetrigger from this lefy handed shooter probably did not help matters.

Reliability was identical withall 3 guns. 100%. Through 250 rounds spread unevenly among the 3.

The Shorty 45 MKII is a fine custom gun. By any measure. And the 4516 is a fine 45 carry or duty pistol - albeit a bit heavy. And the 457 is a fine, reliable every day carry gun, that you won't have a lot in and won't care what happens to it. Especially if it is what you use to save your life in an unfortunate incident.

Three different guns with a wide rangein price point - and much less difference in performance. You can buy four model 457s for the price of a Shorty 45 and buy 2.5 457s for the price of a 4516. Is the performance difference worth the price difference? I don't know. Only you can decide that. Regards 18DAI

 

[GaryS]

Am I way of base by thinking that while the Shorty 45 is the accuracy champion the 457 is the "value per dollar" champion?

While the accuracy of the Short 45 is superb, the fact that the 457 is pretty accurate, 100% reliable, and arguably easier to replace, make it a winner in it's own right.

I think the only negative of the 4516 is the weight due to it being all stainless.

 

[18DAI]

GaryS I'd say you are right on the money. Regards 18DAI

 

[Sevens]

There's a lot to be said (for myself, anyway) about pure, unbridled love and pride of ownership. You can definitely get that from ANY gun, depending on how it hits you, but at this stage of my owning, shooting and collecting life, Smith & Wesson Performance Center semiautomatic pistols have that in spades.

I wouldn't carry that Shorty45 if I owned it, but it would be a total sweetheart to own and love! I'd carry something much more utilitarian.

Great review of these three pistols!

 

[4T5GUY]

Your day at the range is fun to hear about. Although I don't have a 457, my Stainless CS45 is in the same class but of course a bit smaller. It's reliable and accurate enough for its role.

I've had my 4516-2 since new so I am very familiar with it. It's always been accurate and flawlessly reliable. Like you, maybe I shoot it well because I've shot it so much.

My Shorty 45 MKII is extremely accurate, and wasn't that hard to get used to since it's so much like my Pre-Rail 4513TSW. I'm surprised you didn't take yours out with this group just for more comparison. I guess you've got enough cleaning to do.

Thanks for the great "review".

Jim

 

[twistedracer]

over the years I've seen so many people choose their carry gun based on price. I've always gone by what I Shoot the best. When your life matters, price is of no consequence. I carry my Shorty 40 which cost me much more than my M&P PC 9.

 

[18DAI]

Amen! Carry what you can get fast accurate hits with. Regardless of how much or how little it cost.

I was shooting with a customer from the LGS. He is an accomplished long range shooter and was doing very well with the XDs45 he brought along. He kept wanting to shoot at around 15 yards. Trying for teeny tiny groups. And he was getting them. Impressive as the XDs45 is not an easy pistol to shoot well, for me.

But he had never shot realistic drills with a handgun. Ever. So when I told him that I didn't bring any target guns, just fighting guns he smiled. Till I moved the target in to the one yard line and told him that we were going to shoot from low ready, bring the gun up and fire two to the chest and one to the head. As fast as you can find a flash sight picture. Six rounds in the gun. Run the drill 2X. Thats when the wheels came off the cart.

He enjoyed the drills and shot very well for never having done any. I was very pleased with the way the 457 handled and shot. Sure, I have "nicer" guns, but I carry this one frequently. And I am confident as well as competent in both its and my capabilites. Regards 18DAI

 

[Sevens]

I'm totally happy carrying my ugly, soulless tupperware. And I've added 'em up and punched the numbers -- my tupperware pistols make up 3% of the guns I own.

 

[amazingflapjack]

What fits the hand well, feels natural, instills confidence, will usually produce better than acceptable accuracy-but the thing that trumps them all, at least for me, is dependability. That has to be established before the rest of the process goes forward. JMHO.

 

[TTSH]

I'm totally happy carrying my ugly, soulless tupperware. And I've added 'em up and punched the numbers -- my tupperware pistols make up 3% of the guns I own.

Damn! And here I thought I was doing well purging the handgun collection of plastic. Obviously, I've got a long way to go.

I bought a whole lot of plastic during my "Plastic Period"... August '13 to October '15... before I fully realized my mistake. In my defense, I bought a lot of all-metal too, but plastic still beat all-metal by 40% during that time frame.

I have since reformed my ways and now acquire nothing but high-quality metal while selling off as much plastic as possible. But could I ever get down to just 3%? That would be one heck of a challenge.

 

[TTSH]

As you might expect, the Shorty 45 MKII was the accuracy champ. It grouped 230 ball and 230 JHPs into sub 3 inch groups out to 25 yards. Several times at 15 yards it threw 3 rounds through the same hole.

The 4516-3 was a close second place. I wouldn't want to live on the difference. It was easier/faster to get back on target. Whether that was due to it's weight or all the time I have behind it is debatable.

The 457 was "combat accurate". It shot a few 4 inch groups at the 25 yard line and mostly 3 to 4 inch groups at 15 yards. It would benefit from the new sights that I really need to have BMCM install. I just have not parked the pistol long enough to ship him the slide. It is now a priority, for me.

See??? It's a good thing that I don't own any PC pistols because then folks would expect me to demonstrate accuracy at that level! Well, it ain't gonna happen at my advanced age and sad state of decrepitness. No way José!!!

I guess that's why I like the Model 457 so much (and more specifically, the Model 457S)... 'cause if I can match 18 (more or less... or at least come close) at indoor range distances, that's one heck of an accomplishment for a poor old man like me!

 

[Jeppo]

What to carry

I suppose it's Jeppo fess-up time.

I own "several" 1, 2 and 3G Smiths and love each of them. The thought of selling even a dupe makes me cringe. Several of them are potentially excellent carry guns for me.

However, the gun I actually carry has less capacity and prints more than many of the Smith options I have. I carry that gun simply because it has been 100% reliable and I seem to shoot it as well as, if not better than, any other I own. There's something about how it fits my hand that I can't seem to match with any other gun.

I suppose I'd be more proud to carry a 39-2 or maybe a 3913TSW but I carry what I can shoot.

Fessing completed.

 

[Jeppo]

Don't feel bad TTSH. Decrepitness isn't even a word.

 

[18DAI]

Agree strongly with amazingflapjack. Reliability is requirement number 1 in a carry gun. Well.........it DOES need to fit your hand too. Otherwise it doesn't make for fast accurate shots. The kind of shooting you would likely need to do in an unfortunate incident. Because you will be the 2nd person to know you are in a fight.

The PC Shorty and 4516-3 have Hogue rubber grips. The 457 wears the factory OEM with a rubber grips sleeve. The Hogue grips are great for target type shooting. Easier to get a good hold on the gun when shooting those teeny tiny groups.

But the thinner OEM grip with the rubber sleeve works really well for grabbing the 457 quickly out of the holster and getting that big white dot front sight up on target - FAST. But it offers less purchase on the pistol for long range precision shooting. But as I pointed out earlier, this is a fighting handgun. Not a bullseye pistol.

Someone mentioned the Wilson 5x5 drill. I will take a look at that. A drill we use to do, designed to determine the pistols compatability with the shooter was called a 5x5x5 drill. You start with a B27 with a 5x5 index card taped to the chest. Place the target at 5 feet from the shooter. On the buzzer the shooter fires 5 shots in under 5 seconds. All hits must be on the 5x5 index card. Very effective predictor of whether a pistol "fits" you.

I will pass on the tupperware gun discussion. Don't know how it cropped up in this thread. My views on striker fired plastic are well known. Or should be. Suffice it to say when I retired I turned in the company G22, LNIB, unfired by me. But if thats what works for you, then carry one.

The little striker fired XDs45 had one malfunction yesterday. But IMO it was ammo related. Not gun or shooter. It happened as the fella was making his second attempt at shooting the drill. On the make ready command he charged the pistol an went to low ready. I looked and saw the gun was not in battery. I waited a millisecond to see if he would catch it, but he was staring at the target. I debated letting him proceed for another millisecond - as it would have been a good "teaching" moment - but being it was striker fired plastic I didnt know if it would possibly fire out of battery, so I grabbed his shoulder and told him to suspend.

It turned out the round was not the correct OAL. Looked a little long. I popped it into my 4516 and it chambered and fired. It was a Speer 230 grain Lawmen ball round.

The lesson there was, even though your gun has proven itself reliable, you should still pay attention to it. During loading, unloading and while shooting it. Like Uncle Ron use to say; "Trust but verify." Regards 18DAI

 

[TTSH]

Don't feel bad TTSH. Decrepitness isn't even a word.

If it's not a word, then why do all my doctors keep saying it?

 

[TTSH]

Fessing completed.

Not until you out yourself! What's the gun?

 

[18DAI]

TTSH Stevie Wonder could have out shot me at 25 yards yesterday. I was coming off of pain killers from oral surgery I had last Tuesday. I had an adverse reaction to the antibiotic the Doc prescribed. One of the effects was my vision was a bit blurry at distance. Not bad at 10 yards and under though.

The stainless 457 is a very good pistol. Kind of scarce and pricey when it comes along. There is one up on the big auction board. The owner is quite proud of it. But it does appear to be LNIB.

My brother, who is not a gun guy, had a scare recently. Now he wants a concealed permit and a carry gun chambered in 45. I have been steering him twards a stainless 457. Time will tell.

Jeppo, you should always carry that pistol. You get good fast hits with it. I've seen you do it. That gun likes you. Regards 18DAI

 

[ken158]

"Is the performance difference worth the price difference? I don't know. Only you can decide that."

I'm thinking that only YOU can decide what works best for you.

 

[TTSH]

TTSH Stevie Wonder could have out shot me at 25 yards yesterday. I was coming off of pain killers from oral surgery I had last Tuesday. I had an adverse reaction to the antibiotic the Doc prescribed. One of the effects was my vision was a bit blurry at distance. Not bad at 10 yards and under though.

The stainless 457 is a very good pistol. Kind of scarce and pricey when it comes along. There is one up on the big auction board. The owner is quite proud of it. But it does appear to be LNIB.

My brother, who is not a gun guy, had a scare recently. Now he wants a concealed permit and a carry gun chambered in 45. I have been steering him towards a stainless 457. Time will tell.

Well, then it's a good thing you weren't competing against Stevie Wonder yesterday!

As much as I have been unsuccessful in the search for a pre-rail 4513TSW (now abandoned), I have been quite successful in finding 457S pistols at fairly reasonable prices. And with one notable exception (long since disposed of), they are all as-new-in-box.

But times may have changed since the last one I found locally was tagged at $500+Tax... and I'm not even sure that included the factory box.

 

[Jeppo]

Not until you out yourself! What's the gun?

Fessing up is one thing.

Coming out is altogether different.

My carry gun has some synthetic parts.