Tiffany Schofield

[BMur]

I was doing some research and stumbled onto this auction on RIA. Sold for $23,000.... I guess Tiffany bought up some of the 5" Schofields also.
Here is the link if you want to see the auction for better photo's etc.



https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/73/317/tiffany-coetched-sw-first-model-schofield-revolver


Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

The acid etch style engraving is typical of Tiffany. I have never seen the Tiffany stamp on any revolver. I have an example, a .38 DA, 3rd, nickel with MOP stocks. I'll see if I can post a photo tomorrow.

 

[model3sw]

Tiffany or not, original or not ?

A Tiffany is a Tiffany. No arguments other than condition damage. The Schofield cut to 5" (CORRECTION 4", thank you) has been helped A LOT in older age including having the cut to 5" (CORRECTION 4", thank you) long after the gun left Tiffany's ... if (BIG IF) ... it ever was at Tiffany's.

If I were about to go for that much or more money, I'd rather pay a bit more to have it correct and original ... and ... it would need to "letter" as a Tiffany shipped revolver or have other irrefutable support of authenticity.

Yes, plenty of fake Tiffany EVERTYTHING out there, too. Buyer beware.

When I think of Tiffany firearms Art work, I think the magnficent, flawless, engraving and the massive, custom, Tiffany grip/handle as in this one shown (below).

Roy published a book: "Artistry in arms: The guns of Smith & Wesson", in hard and soft covers. A used copy is not that expensive and for those of you that need I have several copies of this book NEW, from old 1992 stock (still in shrink-wrap)

I am of the opinion that fake "Tiffany" stamps (on any item, not solely guns) probably hold the world's record on the quantity of fake stampings out there.

I have a few belt buckles, including most of the original S&W belt buckles (where in retrospect was a waste of money), and two in brass or bronze that are Wells Fargo buckles with the TIFFANY stamp on the rear.

I didn't pay more than $10 each for any of the Wells Fargo / Tiffany buckles but gave that up after purchasing just 2 Tiffany / Wells Fargo Coach (on the front). It is accepted far and wide that these are all fakes. Nice or OK looking belt buckles, just NOT Tiffany.

Research for yourself and read more ... Tiffany Belt Buckles

Anything coming from Tiffany's "world famous" jewelry retail stores and / or any of the foundries for the lamps and other items were nothing less than stunning.

I'm not "professing" anything other than to recommend that BUYERS BEWARE !!! .... and .... I don't believe that RIA to be the slightest bit genuine or, if it started as a REMOTELY possible, it's horrible now.

Sal Raimondi

 

[iby]

The barrel is 4"

 

[BMur]

Who cut the barrel?

I guess we'll never know who cut the barrel down to 4" but a close up of the "EXCELLENT" RIA photos clearly show the Tiffany acid etching terminating at the end of the 4" barrel. So I'm of the opinion that it was 4 inches in length "Prior" to Tiffany applying the etching. So maybe they cut it. It sure looks nice.....$23,000 worth of nice.

Murph

 

[model3sw]

The acid etch style engraving is typical of Tiffany. I have never seen the Tiffany stamp on any revolver. I have an example, a .38 DA, 3rd, nickel with MOP stocks. I'll see if I can post a photo tomorrow.

Mike,

Look at this one close up. I'm not getting all warm and fuzzy over this Schofield. Engraving looks more like Japanese engraving popular to be added to old firearms back in the 1950s-2000-ish that try to imitate period (1880s) New York Engraving.

I'd be willing to give odds (in Monopoly money) that this one is NOT a Tiffany.

Have knots in my stomach now.

Sal Raimondi

 

[BMur]

Tiffany & Co marking

I'm looking at a lot of Tiffany products on various searches, including etched guns and those oversized grips? It seems that they are all marked in some way with Tiffany & Co or a large T' with a shield? I don't know but it seems that there is a pattern to the Company marking their products. First two the photo's are Smith & Wessons that have both the grips and etching on the frame etc. They both letter as being shipped to the Tiffany & Co. location in New York. Compare those to the last photo of the Schofield with "Tiffany & Co" stamped in two places? It sure looks right to me.

Murph.

 

[opoefc]

I'm inclined to agree with Sal that this Schofield has little going for it that ties it to a genuine Tiffany & Co. embellished firearm. Fake Tiffany dies have been out there for years. The etching is nice but not of the quality I would expect to see on a genuine Tiffany product. There's nothing to establish that D.B.Wesson commissioned any Tiffany products like this, as alleged in the description. This isn't the first time a fake S&W in a Rock Island auction brought a high price from an unwary bidder. If genuine, a gun like this should have collector provenance, but nothing mentioned in the auction description. It wasn't a barn find ! Ed.

 

[mmaher94087]

I know; yesterday's thread.. I have a problem with two areas. The first is the less than stellar cutting of the barrel. I think I could get it cut perpendicular with a Hacksaw. Tiffany quality is top notch; this does not come close. The second is the Tiffany & Co. stamp. I believe the stamp on the revolver to be aftermarket as I have never seen a Tiffany & Co. stamp on anything NOT made by them. I'm not an expert on Tiffany markings but I have never seen the " & Co." with the line under the 'o'. The few examples that I've observed were uppercase "& CO.".

 

[model3sw]

I'm looking at a lot of Tiffany products on various searches, including etched guns and those oversized grips? It seems that they are all marked in some way with Tiffany & Co or a large T' with a shield? I don't know but it seems that there is a pattern to the Company marking their products. First two the photo's are Smith & Wessons that have both the grips and etching on the frame etc. They both letter as being shipped to the Tiffany & Co. location in New York. Compare those to the last photo of the Schofield with "Tiffany & Co" stamped in two places? It sure looks right to me.

Murph.

There's really not much out there in the way of Tiffany trademarks and logos. Same for any other major upscale brands, logos and trademarks.

Your first sample First one appears as if a Tiffany "worldwide" marking, sadly rubbed and buffed. Can't make out what it is, however the "scribe" marks are a standard practice of old-time craftsman, especially watchmakers/watch repairmen. Suspicious here is that the repairman's marks are usually placed in a secluded area that it would not be readily seen. Answer here ... not enough data and what's here is not looking good.

2nd resembles a typical, high-end, Tiffany gun handle. At a glance, a nice one. Close up the Tiffany stamp is mis-struck ... and even mis-struck (double struck, one is contoured the other straight line) that's the best of that example could offer as conjecture.

The Schofield is just awful.

First ... look here and have fun: Tiffany Belt Buckles

 

[BMur]

Expert Tiffany evaluation?

So many Tiffany Experts on this forum. Amazing.

I think the Auction houses that have successfully sold these various "claimed" Tiffany Smith & Wesson guns should first talk to the experts on this forum prior to listing a gun for $100,000. The two of three Photo's of Tiffany stamps that I posted if you actually read my post have "FACTORY LETTERS" that prove the guns were shipped to "NEW YORK TIFFANY" and they actually sold for;

$49,000
$97,000

So, I think that proves the stamps are "REAL" ??

Maybe I should "notify a moderator", like so many do on my posts on this forum! Since this is obviously calling the Factory Historical information bogus? Which is most definitely conflicting with the forum rules. I feel like I'm back in grade school.

The 3rd photo is the "Questionable" stamp on the Schofield".

That gun already posted as sold for $23,000

I personally would never touch any Tiffany products. Not because they are often faked? but because I would never spend that kind of money on "ANY " antique firearm. For that kind of money I could own a complete collection of very nice antiques and shooters!

I only started this thread to share the gorgeous etching and on a Schofield no less.



I'm still waiting for Mike's authentic photo of his 38 DA Tiffany??

Murph

 

[opoefc]

Murph, My posts never said your photos of Tiffany stampings were not genuine stampings, just that fake Tiffany dies are out there. If You go back to the 50s & 60s in periodicals like "Shooting Times", etc. you will see ads offering for sale dies of various styles, Colt, Winchester, Tiffany, Wells Fargo, etc. , some of which were easy to differentiate from the genuine article and others that were identical. Charlie Erb specialized in Colt dies. I bought a foot locker full of S&W factory dies & jigs, for $5, scrapped when they moved from downtown Springfield out to the swamp where the current factory was built after WW2. Mostly patent date dies, etc. which came in a handy to refresh worn stampings on older S&Ws. I'm only saying that if you see a Tiffany S&W that does not letter to Tiffany, beware. Ed.

 

[BMur]

Tiffany stamps

Ed,
I sure wish I owned those Smith & Wessons that those Tiffany Stamps reside on because they "ARE REAL" and worth a huge amount of money. NO Question! Backed by Factory letters!

I know that the Schofield has no records. I think a lot of members already know the entire story with the Surplus Schofields. Which opens the door to "unresearched opinions".

We should tread very lightly when we apply unresearched and unsupported opinions of "HIGH DOLLAR" investments. The person that purchased that Schofield might be a member reading these posts. Perhaps they are on the phone with RIA about now expressing their concern about legitimacy based on "EXPERT" opinions on this forum? Who knows?

I have a lot of research behind die stamps. One of those areas of collecting that interests me personally. I also am very familiar with the reproduction stamps that you mentioned. My collection of older reference magazines is sizeable.

What I have found with research backing it? that the vast majority of restored or re-stamped items or what many like to call faked items? are very easily identified if you have a critical eye. I mean those belt buckles are an absolute JOKE! The Tiffany stamp is awful.

Now lets take a "OPEN MINDED" look at the Schofield stamp. This evaluation is backed by years of studying dies.

There is nothing that I am seeing with this die stamp that shows or proves that it's not real. The letters are very early in design and match that period. Also look at a comparable stamp on Solid Gold no less, that was sent to Paris by "FACTORY LETTER" where Tiffany's also had a large office. Notice the Co....NOT CO?

One other specific point? When a die is initially stamped on metal. The outer edges are raised, leaving a rough area on the outside of the letters. This is "Very difficult to physically remove"without obvious evidence.
In other words you are trying to make the die stamp look old? What flattens that area normally is "TIME"...Handling. Wear....Very difficult to fake. Especially when there is heavy patina and partial finish remaining around the die stamp. In other words, it hasn't been refinished over the recent stamp. That is exactly what I am seeing with this stamp. Even wear over a long period of time.

Perhaps the person that spent $23,000 on this Schofield knows a lot more about Tiffany stamps then we do? Perhaps he or she is smarter or more knowledgeable then we are regarding Tiffany items?

I can't find anything wrong with this stamp. I dialed it in very close because RIA has "EXCELLENT" photos and it looks very old to me. The photo is so good in fact that you can see very clearly, milling marks on the cylinder and matching patina in the serial number. Also clear and even finish loss next to the stamp with spots of pitting and rust developing! Also scratches on the metal that actually go through the letters!! How "EXACTLY" does one fake that?

Calling this $23,000 Tiffany Schofield not legit based on this die stamp? Good luck!

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

Tiffany attributed .38 DA

Murph, you just helped support my statement that I have never seen a Tiffany stamp on anything NOT made by Tiffany. Photo three above shows the stamp on the stocks; not the gun. As for the 'Co.' issue, I believe that same photo proves they exist and are original. My three Tiffany & CO. examples are all uppercase.

Here's a photo of the Tiffany attributed acid etched .38 DA. It did not ship directly to Tiffany, NY. It shipped to Edward K. Tryon, Philadelphia, December, 1899. The acid etch is very fine as are the lines within the design. I regret the photo(s) are not the best. Photographing acid etch on nickel in artificial light is almost impossible.

 

[first-model]

Tiffany stamps and hallmarks have varied throughout the years. I dabbled in collecting silver briefly and was immediately overwhelmed by the number and variety of stamps that were used over the years. Some collectors claim that the different stamps can be used to date pieces, while others throw up their hands and claim that there's too much overlap between the different stamps to say anything conclusive. It has echos of the same discussion about S&W serial numbers.

Here's the hallmark stamp from a sterling silver shoehorn that I have in my collection. If it's a fake Tiffany, it's a damn good one ... the repoussé is fantastic. This has the letter "o" underline in "Tiffany & Co."

It's also worth repeating that nothing in history is ever final. We can draw strong conclusions based on the evidence, but alternative explanations can always be found.

Mike

Mike

 

[first-model]

There is nothing that I am seeing with this die stamp that shows or proves that it's not real.

Murph, I hate to nitpick, but I will here.

The assertion that a stamp is real is a logical fallacy. In this case, we should start with the assumption that it's not real (since there is a known history of forgeries) and then work forward to proving that it is a real, authentic, period stamp.

The philosophical burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the person making the positive assertion.

How we do that is another question, and I'm not a scholar of Tiffany stamps to suggest a course of action here. It strikes me that there's actually two questions in that: was this stamp made with a stamp from the Tiffany factory, and when was it stamped?

These are hard questions to answer—and ones that I would want some confidence in if I was going to pony up twenty three thousand George Washingtons.

Mike

 

[BMur]

Worth the money?

That's a great point Mike,

From a researchers standpoint I honestly don't see this die stamp being difficult to prove legit. I'm suggesting that the buyer already knows it's right. He/she doesn't need our approval or RIA's proof. They already know.

Since we do not have specific knowledge on Tiffany die stamps? From that standpoint how would we prove it? If I was interested, which I'm personally not, I would simply find another item during that time frame that has that same identical stamp.

If we look again at the stamp? It's "VERY UNIQUE". Look at the double F's in TIFFANY? They have their own specific characteristics and are not matching. Also the T' in Tiffany and the unique Y at the end of Tiffany is very unique.

All of those unique letter features must exist somewhere on another Authentic and proven item that I'm sure exists out there. Likely on another early (Pre-1890) Tiffany embellished gun.

All you have to do is find one, just one. Sounds hard but not to me it doesn't. So many avenues of approach on this project. It could be as simple as locating a Tiffany Collector and closely examining their collection. It's a high tech world. Even your Tiffany item has very similar letter characteristics in the existing stamp that closely match the stamp on the Schofield.

Sounds like a fun project to me but I just can't justify the time to look for the matching die stamp on an item that I personally will never own. Just way too much money for a single antique Smith. Gorgeous as they are, way out of my league of collecting. I'd rather spend $70,000 on a large workshop on my vacation property than on one single antique gun! but that's just me. Some would spend their money as they see fit. Maybe their concept is a smarter one from an investment standpoint. I don't know.

Murph

 

[gmborkovic]

$23,000? a usual bar bill for me. whats the big deal? Mike

 

[mod34]

$23,000? a usual bar bill for me. whats the big deal? Mike[/QUOTE

A spectacularly value-added post...Now where is my "Puuuullleeeeze" and, "gag" emoji?

 

[BMur]

Tiffany Authentic Stamps

Well, Mikes busy having a Cocktail!

So, I volunteered to add these authentic "Tiffany & Co". Stamps.
They are found on Silver items from the 1850's until the 1950's. The ones I posted are identified by Tiffany Silver collectors as dating from the 1850's to the 1890's.

Notice the comparison with the last photo of the Schofield's stamp? Looks pretty darn close to me.

This is as far as I'm going on this before I get addicted and stay up all night drinking coffee and searching...


Murph