Tiffany Schofield

[mmaher94087]

At this juncture, I'm only suspicious of the marks ON the revolver. The two Tiffany marks MAY be original stamps or copies of legitimate Tiffany stamps but I'm doubting that Tiffany would place their copywrite stamp on anything (the revolver) that was NOT their manufacture. That would leave them open to all kinds of lawsuits. My opinion is that the marks were added to that Scofield revolver.

 

[model3sw]

totally missed the ad copy or auction offering for these 2 with the bills of sale. Please bookmark them in your response so we can all look it over.

Experts is a bad word. At best there are a group of experienced collectors that can share what they know and what they can footnote the proof of.

Almost all the collectors of high end antique or C&R S&Ws are not into the mega expensive stuff like Tiffany or Cartier, LeCoultre, Rolex, Breitling, Patek Philippe, ,etc.

With something other than guns, e.g. pocket watches, the credentials are almost always self evident throughout the piece. Quite unlike Tiffany, and other top end artisans, embellished guns.

Most of the Tiffany embellished guns I've ever seen photo records of with original display photos are those with irrefutable proof of were made for major expositions and fairs late 1800s to eary 1900s.

ALSO, gifts made for Czars, Sheikhs and other high officers, dignitaries kings, etc of foreign Countries. ]

Usually Countries of which (years ago) the USA was kissing-up to get the black gold and / or diamonds and / or other mega-valuables from their lands by making these large gestures and offerings of peace and wealth.

These that i speak of were just stunning, magnificent, mega-expensive show pieces.

When is seems that a story has to be manufactured and polished to promote the auction or sale, even FURTHER ... "buyer beware".

Just because it may have sold for the dollars you post, does not ... not in the least, prove it to be authentic by the sale alone ... as you suggest. Especially when there is really not further story of whether returned of the offering was a fluke, with shill bidders to promote it for the next time it goes around at auction to add some faux accreditation to it. e.g. sold six months ago for $100,000 (or whatever).

Here's something from a fictional character with a scenario that is likely not far from the truth ... [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3C386go1Mo[/ame]

 

[BMur]

Tiffany markings on the gun?

Mike,
The 3 photo's I posted earlier? 7th post I believe? The first marking is actually on the gun. Not on the grips. The Tiffany & Co marking is stamped under the forward section of the frame right below the pivot pin. It's actually marked(stamped) in two places. One is on the grips and the other is under the frame forward of the trigger guard so technically I would think that its "on the gun" at that juncture? Also, not unlike the Schofield? Marked in two places?

I also believe, with little research performed, that there is a timeline here....By that I mean guns that were embellished by Tiffany in the 1880's are much different than those of the 1893 Exposition. It's very easy to find information on those later 1890's guns...It's the ones they embellished earlier that are difficult to evaluate. That would include this Schofield in my opinion. Especially if it was actually performed in Paris or London? There is a very distinct pattern also to Companies or firms bypassing the Major Distributor beginning in the early 1890's and going straight to the factory for gun orders. We saw this very clearly with the Express gun research. I think it also applies to the Tiffany guns as well! I haven't researched this subject enough to draw that conclusion though.

Information seems hard to locate on the earlier guns. Also lets include that Tiffany is documented as having large offices in New York, London, and Paris. London after 1891 but Paris was much earlier!
So, if guns were actually embellished at separate locations? Which I believe they obviously were, I would wager the results would also be quite different. Not unlike London bluing as compared to Hartford bluing referencing Colts....Ops, bad word...
But these Tiffany guns are way beyond finish alone...They are works of Art so the results must be quite different from one Country to the next to the next? 3 separate locations. You'd have to perform a lot of research. Those Paris stamped Tiffany grips? I'd be willing to bet that gun is marked(stamped) somewhere else also...but I don't know. It is very likely that the work was actually performed at the Paris Tiffany location since the "Factory Letter" supports direct shipment to Paris.

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

I certainly have enjoyed reading this thread, and parts of it made me chuckle, regardless of if the statement(s) are correct or even valid.

However, I do have a question for BMur. From this post, and others, you obviously have an interest in antique Smith & Wesson revolvers, and that needs to be encouraged, as our numbers are ever dwindling. Why don't you join the Smith & Wesson Collector's Association?

Smith & Wesson Collectors Association

 

[wordsmith]

I've watched this thread for several days now, much of the back and forth BS is amazingly closed-minded and the negative comments serve no helpful purpose. Being acutely aware of all that concerns this gun, I'll try to clear the air a bit....

First, although I don't nearly always agree with Murph, he is absolutely correct as to the validity of the Tiffany markings on this gun. It came from a prominent antique collection that dates to the pre-WW II years and was vetted by several Tiffany experts, including a retired company archivist, before being accepted for consignment in the auction. Research prior to the auction confirmed the acid-etching matches a number of known Tiffany items, not just guns, some of which - like this gun - were 'used' when embellished. And there is no doubt the barrel was professionally cut to 4" prior to the etching being executed.

Second, as Murph also correctly stated, the current owner IS, in fact, a well-known S&WCA member who knew exactly what he was buying, as did at least one of the underbidders that some of us are also well acquainted with.

Critiquing from a lack of knowledge position = 'talking without thinking', first or at all. Having nothing to back up a negative opinion, other than a negative opinion, does no one any good, especially in this small world we all play in every day.

For what it is, the gun is unique and different, and right as rain. Give it and the owner a break, and simply enjoy seeing something very historically cool from well over 100 years ago.
David

 

[johngross]

I've watched this thread for several days now, much of the back and forth BS is amazingly closed-minded and the negative comments serve no helpful purpose. Being acutely aware of all that concerns this gun, I'll try to clear the air a bit....

Thank you for a very well written post. But hey, you are a wordsmith .

It's amazing how people offer very strong opinions based upon pictures alone. The lighting, camera angle, etc., all play tricks. Somewhere, in one of my Colt books I believe, there is a high quality picture of a revolver, and the screw holes appear to be square. Not exactly related to the discussion at hand, but it does illustrate some problems with making judgements by photos.

 

[Borderboss]

I've watched this thread for several days now, much of the back and forth BS is amazingly closed-minded and the negative comments serve no helpful purpose. Being acutely aware of all that concerns this gun, I'll try to clear the air a bit....

First, although I don't nearly always agree with Murph, he is absolutely correct as to the validity of the Tiffany markings on this gun. It came from a prominent antique collection that dates to the pre-WW II years and was vetted by several Tiffany experts, including a retired company archivist, before being accepted for consignment in the auction. Research prior to the auction confirmed the acid-etching matches a number of known Tiffany items, not just guns, some of which - like this gun - were 'used' when embellished. And there is no doubt the barrel was professionally cut to 4" prior to the etching being executed.

Second, as Murph also correctly stated, the current owner IS, in fact, a well-known S&WCA member who knew exactly what he was buying, as did at least one of the underbidders that some of us are also well acquainted with.

Critiquing from a lack of knowledge position = 'talking without thinking', first or at all. Having nothing to back up a negative opinion, other than a negative opinion, does no one any good, especially in this small world we all play in every day.

For what it is, the gun is unique and different, and right as rain. Give it and the owner a break, and simply enjoy seeing something very historically cool from well over 100 years ago.
David

Thank you very much David for your outstanding post. I've enjoyed reading this post and many others about antique S&Ws on this board because I love the history, even if I'll never own one of them.

I too have been amazed at the amount of negativity in this thread, just for the sake of negativity. Most seems to be by one person who I won't call out but is easy to identify. It's a sad fact that in many hobbies there's a "not invented here" mentality among "experts", meaning that if they didn't say it, it's not true.

I particularly found it astounding about the opinions that this guy was fake given that an auction company that handles literally tens of thousands of historical weapons a year authenticated it. Now I know that auction companies can be fooled. I collect wine, and fakes abound. It's also true that there are some buyers who have more money than brains. But to default this gun to being fake is to immediately declare that both RIA and the bidders on the gun were idiots.

Your post helps to identify the true problems in this thread. Thanks!!

 

[BMur]

Advanced Collector

Hi David,
Thanks for chiming in. Sometimes I feel like I'm fighting alone on this site. Veterans never give in. Living in California leaves you with very thick skin.
My impression of this auction was always that I was looking at an "Advanced Collector". By that I mean someone did their homework. Often I have found that the Auction Houses "miss the boat" and all that is required of the Collector is that they perform some basic and honest research.
I would like to offer my congratulations to the member that purchased this fine Schofield and my true envy. They did well and bought low as compared to some prices of other Tiffany guns. This one is a Schofield! Wow, is all I can say.

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

I particularly found it astounding about the opinions that this guy was fake given that an auction company that handles literally tens of thousands of historical weapons a year authenticated it.

If you believe that statement, I have a bridge to sell you.

NEVER believe what an auction house writes, much is little more than fiction. The fine print of most states that they guarantee the title part of the description, but not their other fabricated drivel.

An auction house that handles volume spends very little time authenticating anything, as it is usually just a best guess, albeit an educated one sometimes.

This is not just a one way street, however. It pays to do your homework! I have scored some amazing deals on antique Smith & Wesson revolvers over the years because I know more than the auction house does about a particular firearm, poppycock or otherwise.

 

[mrcvs]

MAJOR question: Why is RIA selling this firearm and, whether it achieved a $23,000 hammer price or otherwise, not presenting it with, what would have been at the time, a $75 letter?

 

[mmaher94087]

Thank you David. I stand corrected. It's evident that my suspicion was totally incorrect. That revolver is the first and only that I have seen with the Tiffany marks on the gun itself.

 

[gmborkovic]

So, the lesson learned is, reject negativity and pursue research.
Good lesson. Mike

 

[Borderboss]

If you believe that statement, I have a bridge to sell you.

NEVER believe what an auction house writes, much is little more than fiction. The fine print of most states that they guarantee the title part of the description, but not their other fabricated drivel.

An auction house that handles volume spends very little time authenticating anything, as it is usually just a best guess, albeit an educated one sometimes.

This is not just a one way street, however. It pays to do your homework! I have scored some amazing deals on antique Smith & Wesson revolvers over the years because I know more than the auction house does about a particular firearm, poppycock or otherwise.

I never fully trust an auction house. I collect wine, and the amount of fakes that have gone through big name auction houses is legendary. However, unless that house has a reputation for handling questionable stuff, you have recourse should something you bought from them turns out to be fake. Just look at the payouts firms like Christie's has done due to fake wine.

That said, the negativity was also assuming the seller was an idiot with more money than brains. Again, looking at the fake wine market, that turned out to be true in some cases. But that turned out to be the guy that brought the house down. As we saw from David's post, that's far from true for the purchaser of the gun in question.

 

[first-model]

I prefer to "trust and verify."

I think most auction houses want to do the right thing and that most (perhaps with a few rare exceptions) make a good faith effort to post accurate information. That said, mistakes happen—deliberately or not—and it's on the buyer to validate everything.

And as for my earlier post about starting with the assumption that this is a fake stamp: that's what I assume with every gun that comes into my hands. If I let my emotion cloud my good judgment, then I'd be broke and with a worthless collection of junk.

As for the validity of this particular Schofield: I'm not a Schofield expert and I'm far from calling myself a Tiffany expert, so I wouldn't trust my own judgment on a gun like this. There are perhaps a half-dozen people in the world that I would trust to assess a gun like this, and David is one of them ... so his avouchment goes a long way for me.

Mike

 

[opoefc]

If the provenance of this Schofield is what David says, and I don't doubt him a bit, it's strange the auction description did not mention it. Being in a prominent collection and with a Tiffany archivist's opinion being provided, etc. the $23,000 seems like chump change, if those facts had been revealed by RIA before the auction. I have clients that would have bid higher if that concealed background had been revealed before the auction. Ed.

 

[BMur]

Envy

I often use RIA website to perform research. It's a Wonderful resource. You can surf auctions back 10 years, read and document factory letters, which is "HUGE". Their photo's are wonderful. It's always up to the buyer to decide if they want to bid or not...That's life folks! DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!

However, one major pitfall? You get to see auctions that you missed out on and didn't bid on. "HOW did I Miss that one"! Is a common mumble from my lips while researching! This Tiffany Schofield is one in the bucket for me personally. I guess you can say I'm SOLID "Green" with Envy.

Sort of like being on a piece of junk DE(Destroyer Escort) in 40 ft swells running from a typhoon. I'll get over it though...

Murph

 

[BMur]

Auction Houses "MISS the Boat"

I agree 100% Ed,
Those of us who watch auction houses? You can often find very nice Antiques that are very poorly listed. This Schofield is definitely one of them....We can all tell stories about our experiences.....OK,,,I'll start....

I was at Greg Martins when it was in San Francisco...He had a extremely rare 2" barrel Colt lightning in about 95% condition. Blued...Gorgeous... NO information, NO factory letter, NO Nothing....estimated $800-$1200... CRAZY LOW.
At that time the very few that I saw sold for over $5000 and in much worse shape but because it had ZERO provenance? I had to see it...….I went to the preview, examined the gun and was absolutely sure it was right. It had very unusual features including a custom acid panel that I had never seen before, the wrong German Silver front sight (should have been small 1/2 moon iron) but I knew it was a special order and bid on it.....I got it for under $1000.....

The day I went to pick it up? I forget the guys name who worked for Greg but he brought it up from the basement and handed it to me in a cardboard box and said; "Hold on a minute"....He walked up to the clerk and came back with a large brown envelope...…. It was a factory letter that confirmed the rare 2" barrel length....I was beside myself....That was a "GREAT DAY"......and also proves that they screw up a lot!

Murph

 

[Stevens]

I wonder if Tiffany would engrave a gun today? maybe they do I don't know,
Anyone?
Steve W

 

[mmaher94087]

I agree with Ed's assessment. Had the Tiffany Archivist's provenience been revealed; I would not question the Schofield's authenticity.

 

[iby]

I don't believe any of you