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Time for marshall law
- Thread starter zzzippper
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Gosh darn it! I'm trying to watch my weight and my budget!
Now I have a hankering for a new silver Governor and some cake!
I hope we can find some peace in this country. We're all in this together after all.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
Marshal law could spread across the country from Ferguson? Just like Sandy hook festered like a pimple. Don't give them even a little excuse to start gun grabbing.
Hmmm... wonder how we could get us one them thar riots here at the little old town I live nearby???
We could sure use an influx of tax dollars to kinda spruce the place up.
Ματθιας;138063440 said:This Marshall Law?
For all the non-gen Xers/gamers who have/had no idea who's in the pict:
Marshall Law (Tekken) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Doug M.
Member
*
The police have not become militarized. Mr. Balko is a first rate kook who is completely unaware of the extent of his ignorance.
First, LE is and always has been a paramilitary structure. Second, LE has become a lot more reticent about use of force since the 1930s. There are plenty of photos and other documentation of LE agencies using honest to goodness real belt fed machine guns 80-90 years ago. The only place of which I am aware where anything like it is standard is on the patrol boats that Texas DPS uses in a specific area where the level of violent assaults on both them and private citizens is staggeringly high. I think they are M240s, but that's not my skill set.
Look at the uniforms that so many ignorantly think are appropriate. From where do you think those are derived? That's right, 1950s military dress uniforms, and before that, 1920s dress uniforms, and before that ... . And those uniforms are both unsafe and horrid items in which to work. Although the military had flak jackets and the like, light body armor came first to LE. The stuff that causes so much whining, like utility uniforms, and jumpsuits, and riot gear - all protective gear appropriate to the workplace. LE does not have "tanks" - those are (light) trucks (sorry - truck driver bias) with some amount of armor. Protective gear, appropriate to the encounter. Did I have an issued helmet? Yup. Carried it in my trunk. An uncomfortable annoying piece of gear; until I went to an incident in which bottles were being thrown. Then it was priceless. I was the only one who had it with me; as far as I saw, everyone else left theirs in their locker where it was worthless.
We do not use most of the tactics of an infantry unit, for example. The LE personnel most critical of the claim that LE is militarized are those who have actually served in combat arms functions, especially the Marine 0311s and Army 11Bs (infantry) who trained and fought in that role. My friends with such backgrounds are very critical of the claim, because they are familiar with both contexts and know very well the difference. (I don't; while I study such things for lots of good reasons, Uncle Sam knew better than to take me as a JAG officer, let alone anything combat arms.)
As for the Guard: even if the personnel deployed are trained as MPs, they generally will not have a lot of training directly related to the civil disturbance crowd control function. This is true even of those who are trained in the Corrections side of military LE, because almost all of their training is related to a different mission (the law related to use of force in corrections is different from that in the street; 8th/14th amendment vs. 4th, in simple crude terms, and in many states the statutory authority is different). I am not familiar enough with the UCMJ to know if they have different statutory standards for the two settings, and their actions will be probably be driven mostly by state law since this is a State mission.
It is my understanding that the Guard units called up will not be front line deployed, but mostly securing the command post (and force protection of that nature is part of the MP skill set from what I am told). A friend with nearly 20 years of active and Guard time, and 25-ish in LE, told me that he is concerned for the safety of those troops because if they are trained as badly as his unit was for such a mission (he was infantry, so not a fair comparison), and subject to the same political crud that has hamstrung the response so far, they are essentially targets.
SLCPD should have been left in there, as they have the skill set and legal authority that MSHP does not, and likely the Guard will not either.
OP
zzzippper
Member
It is not the "free people" that are rioting, it is the scumbags. This is just going to keep feeding off itself until it is stopped.
Two shot last night. 31 wounded. Molotov cocktails. If this military police force is not going to clean the streets then put them away and re-arm them with model 586s.
BTW, the St. Louis City Police shot and killed a guy with a knife this afternoon in another ethnically not diverse part of town.
And to Doug M., the militarization of the police is not in regard to tactics (yet). Fortunately they can't call in air strikes (yet). It has to do with the uniforms, weapons, and vehicles. Why in the world Douglas County, CO needs an armored car is beyond me. Why National Park Service guuards need Humvees to patrol the grounds of the Gateway Arch is beyond me.
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Mickey D
Member
Remember Katrina and marshal law? Just say NO!
cmort666
Member
John Philip Law played the angel in "Barbarella".
Maze 686
US Veteran
Humvees took the place of the M151 Jeep in the military, how is this lightly armored vehicle scary to you ? They were useless to the Military as front line vehicles because they offered little protection.
Should we go back to the days of issued Thompson Machineguns, BARS, and M1919s. Or maybe you prefer the M1 and M2 carbines issued to police in the 50s and 60s ?
Don't forget the uniforms of the Police designed after the German Army of WWl and WWll. I think it is the New Mexico State Police that are still wearing the Nazi Black Uniform of the SS. I think I'd rather look like a Paramilitary member of the United States then wear a foriegn designed uniform of the past.
This seems to have been going on since WWI. After that war, I seem to remember reading that some PDs got BARs and light machine guns.
After WWII, PDs got Thompsons, M3 "Grease Guns", LMGs, jeeps, and other surplus equipment.
After the Vietnam war, more of the same.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, more equipment was surplussed and sent to PDs and other municipal agencies.
I think the larger issue is the militarization of federal agencies. Does the FDA really need a SWAT team? If it were up to me, I'd restrict the various OIGs to investigating wrong doing within their agencies. I'd also require them to refer the results to the FBI for law enforcement action. If needed, I'd allow the OIG staff members to have side arms, but no long guns or "tactical gear".
I also think that state and local PDs should reconsider their approach to warrant service. Some use their SWAT guys for every warrant, even if it's not for a violent crime.
I did medical standbys for local and federal agencies. Some of the ones that federal agencies did were circus like. Federal agencies, state police, local police, animal control, child welfare agency, EMS, and other agencies. There was no stealth involved because the trail of vehicles was longer than a freight train.
The local agencies used a much smaller team to serve most warrants. Once the scene was secured, the SWAT guys, animal control, EMS, and everyone but the detectives serving the warrant cleared the scene.
I think some sort of risk versus benefit calculation needs to be done when a warrant is going to be served.
But, what do I know, I'm just a retired paramedic.
The Nazi dress uniforms, or some of them, were supposedly patterned after the winter duty uniform of the MA State Police. The story is that Goring was in MA in the early 1930s and was so impressed with the MSP uniforms that he took the design back to Germany.
Of course people in New Jersey have said the same thing about their uniforms, so who knows?
After WWII, PDs got Thompsons, M3 "Grease Guns", LMGs, jeeps, and other surplus equipment.
After the Vietnam war, more of the same.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, more equipment was surplussed and sent to PDs and other municipal agencies.
I think the larger issue is the militarization of federal agencies. Does the FDA really need a SWAT team? If it were up to me, I'd restrict the various OIGs to investigating wrong doing within their agencies. I'd also require them to refer the results to the FBI for law enforcement action. If needed, I'd allow the OIG staff members to have side arms, but no long guns or "tactical gear".
I also think that state and local PDs should reconsider their approach to warrant service. Some use their SWAT guys for every warrant, even if it's not for a violent crime.
I did medical standbys for local and federal agencies. Some of the ones that federal agencies did were circus like. Federal agencies, state police, local police, animal control, child welfare agency, EMS, and other agencies. There was no stealth involved because the trail of vehicles was longer than a freight train.
The local agencies used a much smaller team to serve most warrants. Once the scene was secured, the SWAT guys, animal control, EMS, and everyone but the detectives serving the warrant cleared the scene.
I think some sort of risk versus benefit calculation needs to be done when a warrant is going to be served.
But, what do I know, I'm just a retired paramedic.
The Nazi dress uniforms, or some of them, were supposedly patterned after the winter duty uniform of the MA State Police. The story is that Goring was in MA in the early 1930s and was so impressed with the MSP uniforms that he took the design back to Germany.
Of course people in New Jersey have said the same thing about their uniforms, so who knows?
Uh, yeah, ok.
Mapping The Militarization Of America?s Police Force Since 2006 « Silver For The People
I assume you can read a map. You seem to be good at long stories.
Again, only ones I see condoning the MILITARIZATION of the Police, ARE the Police.
There is no need for the UNITED STATES of AMERICA to have the armor listed at the enclosed link. Unless they want to use it against us.
They sure aren't using it on the borders, but are real quick to pull it out to use on main street AMERICA
Nope. Not needed.
If you actually think the Police are not and have not become Militarized........... I'm at a loss for words.
All Civilian Army.
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US Gov't. has a free give-away for local law enforcement. They can even get personnel carriers and tanks...free (actually on loan). Started way before Obama...to be aimed at US citizens under the aegis of the "war against drugs." Homeland security or gestapo on steroids? You make the call. Kinda worries me, but then again, it is nothing new. (Actually I would love to get my hands on some of this stuff myself!) Check out the inventory here:
Weapons
Weapons
You mean like this?
We Are Above the Law Declares County Attorney - PaulCraigRoberts.org
The Author ( Paul Craig Roberts) worked under Reagan... smart man.
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erick1987
Member
it would die out if the media and cops leave and forget about it. it is no longer about someone being killed. it is about the atention.
Maze 686
US Veteran
Tanks? Got a link?
Because the link you provided has Hunvees and MRAPs. Which are nothing more then a transport vehicle that offers protection from small arms fire. The MRAP will deflect mine explosions too though.
These tanks you mention, do they still have their main gun? As for personnel carriers, NYPD has had two since the early eighties and there are none to be had these days.
fideau
Member
If they declared Martial Law they would only ban and try to confiscate all guns leaving the store owners defenseless. What they need to do is enforce the law and make a statement, "all looters will be shot on sight".
Ματθιας;138064559 said:
I like the nifty bowling shoes.
OP
zzzippper
Member
A question for those who say the police have always been militarized. If that is true, how was the LAPD so iut gunned during the famous shootout that they had to borrow guns and ammo from sporting goods stores?
OP
zzzippper
Member
And when another store gets burned out or cars over turned that will get...more attention.
OP
zzzippper
Member
To compare Ferguson, MO to NOLA is silly.
Maze 686
US Veteran
That was department policy, no all officers had long guns in their vehicles and the incident only lasted 42 minutes and officers with rifles were stuck in traffic.
Yeah, I think the 'protesters' have been coddled too long. We already know what the true protesters want. It was clear the first day. We also know what the hooligans and looters want.
They need to know three things:
1. We hear your concerns and they will be addressed and investigated.
2. Unlawful use of deadly force by LE will not be tolerated.
3. Rioting, looting, violence, threats and interference with citizens rights of commerce, travel and safety will not be tolerated.
Now, Go Home and wait for your justice to work.
They need to know three things:
1. We hear your concerns and they will be addressed and investigated.
2. Unlawful use of deadly force by LE will not be tolerated.
3. Rioting, looting, violence, threats and interference with citizens rights of commerce, travel and safety will not be tolerated.
Now, Go Home and wait for your justice to work.
nawilson
US Veteran
Actually, the North Hollywood shootout was a cause for many local agencies to adopt patrol rifles. It makes sense, I wouldn't want the police more lightly armed than the citizens. Besides, you should not use one agency, especially one in CA, to try to disprove a statement. Law enforcement has been para-military throughout the 20th and 21st centuries. Look at the uniforms, ranks, training, and equipment. The objectives and tactics are (and should be) different.
That said, I am not a fan of turning everything into a SWAT callout. It is unnecessary. The growth of Federal SWAT is also worrisome. DEA tactical teams make sense, and the FBI and US Marshalls have a pretty obvious need for SWAT to arrest dangerous fugitives. The rest of the Federal guys could, and I think should, use FBI or USMS on those rare occassions that a need arises.
One of the biggest things fueling the armored cars (HMMWVs and MRAPs) among police is just the cost. DoD pretty much gives them away. Frankly, I prefer that than to just give the trucks to the Iraqis or Afghans...
Here are a couple more links, officer.
You should think long an hard.
The people that tell these two stories have a lot of knowledge.
The boys don't need these toys.
But I'm SURE you disagree.
'We're building a domestic army' -Marine Corps colonel speaks out
and THIS is Concord, NH. Tell me they NEED what they are looking to take on...why?
I would suggest you watch that video over and over..... and then over again.
Is Obama building ?citizen army? « ModernSurvivalOnline.com
Two well respected men. Retired Marine, and Retired Army. I think I'll take THEIR word over yours.
The United States of America does not need MILITARIZED Police, with all the toys. For what? To fight WHO?
You say the MRAPs will "deflect mine explosions"
You guys dodging a lot of mines over there where you are?
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Time to learn how to spell . . .
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