Time To end Churches as Gun Free Zones

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I disagree.
I think it is time to end ANY public gathering places - including schools - being gun free slaughter zones.

This^^^^ I would like the inalienable rights of all Americans to be restored under constitutional protections. The 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th to name a few.

As for carrying in a Church, PA has never had this absurd restriction and I'd like to see the same for the rest of the country.

Best Regards,

Kobsw
 
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Regarding 'Gun Free' churches, I have some concerns. Setting up their own trained security is one thing. They determine who is entitled to carry and who is adequately trained. But allowing anyone or everyone to carry? That would suggest that the shooter would be able to enter with no problem carrying. Also a Church shouldn't become a 'shooting' gallery or gun range. Shooting in any crowded location presents a danger. Does anyone else agree with this?
 
Fort Worth's police chief has encouraged his officers who attend church to do so in full uniform to help deter any future shooters. I think that's could help.

Texas allows carry in church unless the church posts the state mandated no carry signs like any private business. I know many people who carry in church regularly. None of them has ever turned a church into a "shooting gallery."

As a financial supporter and regular listener of American Family Radio, I agree with their opinion on the matter.
 
Regarding 'Gun Free' churches, I have some concerns. Setting up their own trained security is one thing. They determine who is entitled to carry and who is adequately trained. But allowing anyone or everyone to carry? That would suggest that the shooter would be able to enter with no problem carrying. Also a Church shouldn't become a 'shooting' gallery or gun range. Shooting in any crowded location presents a danger. Does anyone else agree with this?
Nope. I have no more problem with "everyone" being able to carry in Church than I do anywhere else in public.

My Church's policy is if you are legal to carry concealed and want to do so, feel free. They ask that you not OPEN carry since it makes some people uncomfortable, but concealed is concealed and as long as you are legal they're OK with it.
 
Regarding 'Gun Free' churches, I have some concerns. Setting up their own trained security is one thing. They determine who is entitled to carry and who is adequately trained. But allowing anyone or everyone to carry? That would suggest that the shooter would be able to enter with no problem carrying. Also a Church shouldn't become a 'shooting' gallery or gun range. Shooting in any crowded location presents a danger. Does anyone else agree with this?

I don't think there is any specific law or regulation making churches gun free zones in California. Not at the state level, anyway. I never carry in church because my church has a K-8 school on site and CCW licensees can't carry on school grounds.

I too share your concern about untrained people trying to shoot active shooters in crowds of panicked people. Same in theaters etc.

My "plan" if I ever find myself in an active shooter situation is take cover and try to get my family out of dodge as soon as possible. And only shoot if the bad guy is about to shoot me or mine. Let trained people deal with the shooter.
 
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As background to the comments below, our church stood up our Safety Team about 3 years ago. All Team members receive professional classroom training regarding our legal liabilities and limitations, as well as the use of up to and including deadly force.

Our rule is that anyone armed in church must be a member of the Team. Implied in this is you must attend the training described above, and pass a yearly range certification course demonstrating you have the judgment and skills to perform under stress. This limits both the individual's and church's liability in case of an incident.

In short, we thought that you have to know how everyone, especially those who are armed, will respond in case of an emergency. We also know each other and train together, so the chance that there will be a "good guy on good guy" incident drops significantly.

Our state does allow us to post signage that states "no concealed carry except by authorized personnel". This puts the burden of keeping the church safe squarely on our Team (I suspect many facilities don't realize this), and it also implies to those who might seek to cause trouble that there may very well be armed opposition to their actions.

If this sounds complicated and (potentially) expensive, it can be. I do not mean this as a criticism of those who are able and want to defend their houses of worship, but it is nowhere near as simple as solely allowing guns to be carried therein. It took 1-2 years of intensive study to develop our policies and procedures for our (relatively) small church property.

There is training available so that incidents can be deterred and managed before having to resort to deadly force, and I wish those of you in decision-making positions regarding church carry to consider this and be safe.
 
But allowing anyone or everyone to carry? That would suggest that the shooter would be able to enter with no problem carrying.

Because prohibiting people from carrying guns has been so successful at preventing such attacks in the past...?

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I have been regularly carrying a concealed pistol at church for about 12 years. I would find a new church before I would stop carrying.

Not worried at all about it becoming a "shooting gallery or range". The more licensed guns, the better IMHO.

Ditto that. I'd rather have the risks associated with a dozen good guys with guns trying to take out one (or more) active shooter than the risk of one active shooter with no one to oppose him. Kind of like preferring to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
Posting "Gun Free Zone" signs outside of Churches and Schools is about as effective as posting "Wolf Free Zone" signs outside of Sheep Pens and Chicken Coops.

Either way, the predators will inevitably show up to prey on the helpless unless somebody is there to stand guard.
The difference is, the average farmer has the good sense to keep a watchful eye on his livestock rather than putting up worthless signs that wolves obviously wouldn't be dissuaded by, even if they could read/understand them.
 
Regarding 'Gun Free' churches, I have some concerns. Setting up their own trained security is one thing. They determine who is entitled to carry and who is adequately trained. But allowing anyone or everyone to carry? That would suggest that the shooter would be able to enter with no problem carrying. Also a Church shouldn't become a 'shooting' gallery or gun range. Shooting in any crowded location presents a danger. Does anyone else agree with this?

"Setting up their own trained security..."

I certainly have no problem with any church "setting up their own trained security". I can guarantee there are far more churches that do not have the funds available to do this than those who can afford it. Most churches barely scrape by from week to week.

"That would suggest that the shooter would be able to enter with no problem carrying."

The BG at the Texas church sure did not have a problem walking in, with a concealed shotgun no less. Would you propose metal detectors inside of every public door in the country? Or maybe you would prefer pat downs and searches. If any BG can walk into any facility with a gun, I most certainly want to at least have the possibility of protecting myself and my family from said BG.

"Shooting in any crowded location presents a danger."

Yes, it most certainly does. And this is the exact same logic that the anti-gun crowd uses in their demand for gun free zones. While I have not heard any of them say it out loud, what this tells me is that they would prefer a BG be able to shoot and kill as many innocent people as he can, but somehow it would be immoral if a GG eliminated the BG and, in the process, one or two innocent people would become collateral damage. I know, that sounds very insensitive, but I have given a lot of thought to this very thing. I surely would not want to be the GG in this case. But if it should ever happen, I would much more want to be responsible for a minimum amount of collateral damage than be responsible for doing nothing and allowing the BG to kill perhaps dozens of innocents. The entire shooting event in that Texas church took less than 3 seconds. The BG killed two people and a GG took out the BG with one shot to the head. If that GG had not reacted as quickly and decisively as he did, how many more innocent people would have lost their lives?

Crowded places are where mass shootings occur. A bad guy with a gun in a crowded place can easily kill or injure many people in a very short time. At least a good guy with a gun in the same crowd has a chance of keeping the killing to a lesser number. If someone cannot stomach that thought, then I would suggest they not carry for self defense anywhere they might go. The only other option is waiting for the police to arrive. We all know how well that usually works out.

Make no mistake, I am no "operator" and I have zero desire to ever be in such a situation. I am not a law enforcement officer and have no intention of trying to be one. But I sure ain't going to sit there, do nothing, and wait for one to show up. I can live with that.
 
Regarding 'Gun Free' churches, I have some concerns. Setting up their own trained security is one thing. They determine who is entitled to carry and who is adequately trained. But allowing anyone or everyone to carry? That would suggest that the shooter would be able to enter with no problem carrying.

I understand, but think about it, the shooter is going to enter the building anyway, he doesn't care about getting permission. He obviously wasn't supposed to be there armed in the first place, but he was anyway. Criminals like that don't abide by gun laws. They break them. In fact, they frequently pick gun-free zones to avoid being interrupted.

Also a Church shouldn't become a 'shooting' gallery or gun range. Shooting in any crowded location presents a danger. Does anyone else agree with this?

Again, whether a church becomes a shooting range has nothing to do with whether it is a gun-free zone, and they are going to continue being shooting galleries because the shooter doesn't need or want anyone's permission.

Last Sunday in Texas, for example, how many more people would have died if someone hadn't stood up (in this case the security guard)? And they were ready for him! Moreover, not every church has the money to afford security personnel. Furthermore, this doesn't happen only in churches, and police can rarely help avoid shootings. They arrive after the fact.

Let's take a worst case-scenario. A law abiding gun owner is in a church and sees a man starting to shoot (remember, there's no security already eyeballing the subject in this scenario). He intervenes and let's say the shooter killed two people (probably more because no one is ready for him) and the concealed carry permit holder accidently shoots and kills a third while stopping the bad guy. Remember, the killer on Sunday was actively setting out to kill people, so on average I think it's reasonable to assume he's going to kill more people than someone who accidentally misses and hits someone else. And like I mentioned, in this case last week, someone was already monitoring him. Chances are if that wasn't the case many more would have perished.

So in this hypothetical, we have two to three dead minimum (depending on whether the concealed carrier makes a major mistake and how much longer it takes him to react not having prior knowledge of the suspicious man). If that concealed carry permit holder wasn't there, how many more people could the shooter take down before he's stopped? 3? 6? A dozen? Two dozen? This guy could have an AR-15 or an AR-15 pistol, for example. Even if he didn't, a 17-round magazine and reloads can do a lot of damage especially at a church where unsuspecting people are facing forward and have no easy way to vacate the building quickly enough to get out of harm's way.

There is no good outcome in situations like this. All we can do is limit the losses, and we're always going to have a greater chance of that with armed citizens. In fact, if most people in society were always armed, these people would probably be too afraid to commit mass shootings anyway. Remember, most of the time these people take their own lives as soon as someone starts shooting back.
 
Oklahoma considers churches private property, and has no laws limiting carry. The owners of private property do as they wish.
Of the Oklahoma churches I have attended, only the military chapels on base prohibit carry. Same for when I visit relatives in KY.
 
I have been regularly carrying a concealed pistol at church for about 12 years. I would find a new church before I would stop carrying.

This is something I have a really hard time with because naturally I'm inclined to agree with you but Spiritually I believe that God placed the Pastor of the church in a position of Spiritual Authority over that church.

I know that at my church they wouldn't post the building unless the Pastor, the church board and the oversight committee ( a group of pastors from our denomination who are not actually members of our church) all agreed that it was the right thing to do.

If that happened, I would have to believe that it was from God and I'd abide by it unless I had CLEAR direction otherwise.

IMO there are only two reasons to leave a church

1. God lead you to do so

2. The church is preaching unquestionably unsound Doctrine.

Not being able to carry a gun doesn't fall under either one of those two categories
 
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