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How can an old guy tell the dif between model 1 or 1 1/2?
mmaher94087
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Round butt: Model 1, 3rd Issue; Model 1 1/2, 2nd Issue (same as flutes). The 1,3 is a seven shot .22 and the 1 1/2 is a five shot .32.
Model 1 is .22 and the 3rd issue has fluted cylinder.
Model 1 1/2 is .32rf and 2nd issue has fluted cylinder.
Both have birdshead grip (round butt). Earlier models have square butt.
glove meant that .22 model is smaller in dimension than the .32 model. Smaller frame, shorter cylinder. Otherwise Mod. 1 3rd issue and Mod. 1 1/2 issue have the same look.(?) One way to know is cylinder. The .22 has 7-shot cylinder and .32 5-shot and .22short would drop right through .32 cylinder chamber.
Model 1 1/2 is .32rf and 2nd issue has fluted cylinder.
Both have birdshead grip (round butt). Earlier models have square butt.
glove meant that .22 model is smaller in dimension than the .32 model. Smaller frame, shorter cylinder. Otherwise Mod. 1 3rd issue and Mod. 1 1/2 issue have the same look.(?) One way to know is cylinder. The .22 has 7-shot cylinder and .32 5-shot and .22short would drop right through .32 cylinder chamber.
Late Model 1, 2nd issue
Actually the late Model 1, 2nd issue in 7 shot .22cal ( fluted cylinder made from late Model 1-2 parts in 1868) I believe "introduced"the fluted cylinder in late 1868. According to a recent "Factory letter" on this one ( see photos) From Mr. Jinks stating it was a late shipment Model 1, 2nd issue.
Murph
Actually the late Model 1, 2nd issue in 7 shot .22cal ( fluted cylinder made from late Model 1-2 parts in 1868) I believe "introduced"the fluted cylinder in late 1868. According to a recent "Factory letter" on this one ( see photos) From Mr. Jinks stating it was a late shipment Model 1, 2nd issue.
Murph
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good info
Very good info, thanks
What about patent dates and locations. I see 1 fluted cyl with patent dates and another on the barrel?
I ordered the S&W Standard Cat. this morn from Amz. I assume it will have some of this info?
Very good info, thanks
What about patent dates and locations. I see 1 fluted cyl with patent dates and another on the barrel?
I ordered the S&W Standard Cat. this morn from Amz. I assume it will have some of this info?
mmaher94087
Member
The late 1,2 with the fluted cylinder that was posted by BMur is not often encountered. The 1,3 will have the patent dates on the barrel rib. The SCSW that you ordered will address 99.9% of your questions.
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The 1st and 2nd issue guns up to about serial number 20,000 had two patent dates on the smooth cylinder, and the manufacturer's marks on the top of the barrel.
The 2nd issue guns after about serial number 20,000 had three patent dates on the smooth cylinder, and the manufacturer's marks on the top of the barrel.
The 3rd issue guns had fluted cylinders with no patent date markings. The patent dates were moved to the top rib of the barrel. In the case of the factory short-barreled guns, the patent and manufacturing marks appear on the side of the barrel.
I have never seen any primary source documentation of 2nd issue barrels being shipped from the factory on 3rd issue frames.
Mike
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The standard Model 1, 2nd Issue had patent dates on a smooth cylinder, and the 3rd Issue had patent dates on the barrel rib.
I have no idea how Roy called that gun a 2nd Model, unless he was assuming the barrel and cylinder were the identifier. It must be remembered that both Issues had overlapping serial numbers, with the 2nd Model running from 11,672 to 126,361. The 3rd Issue serial numbers were from 1 to 131,163. Bottom line was that there was supposed to be a serial number 126,443 in 3rd Issue, but not 2nd Issue? Barrels are interchangeable, but the bottom line is whether it has matching assembly numbers?? If so, it only compounds the dilemma of determining authenticity.
My thoughts on the hybrid is that it was either a factory lunchbox special, or gunsmith's project. I cannot imagine the factory selling a gun with parts of patent dates missing on the cylinder??
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Gary, I've thought long and hard about that gun, and without any more supporting documentation I also land on the side of it having been put together outside of the usual production channels.
It's clearly a 1-3 frame. The fact that it has a serial number that's *just* outside of the known 1-2 serial number range makes it tempting to believe that it's a "transition" variation, but it could also just be coincidence.
Like you, I'd want to see the assembly marks. I'd also want to look closely at the hinge and clasp areas to see if there was any custom fitting done. I've never tried to put a 1-2 barrel on a 1-3 frame and I have no idea if they would fit, but my guess is that it would take at least a bit of hand work to get it done.
That said, I know that the factory wanted to make money any way it could, and as we've seen with the Model 1 1/2's, there were some cobbled together transition models that were sold through legitimate channels.
So at this point, anything is possible. But, as I said before, I'll err on the side of caution until I see more good primary source evidence to suggest that transition Model 1's were sold by S&W.
Mike
Rare Bird
I've only heard of others having a transitional 1-2 to 1-3 like the one I own. I've never seen another one.
Mr. Jinks says he can't confirm it in the letter that I have for it. So there are no records available that can confirm the configuration.
He does however "confirm the serial number" exists in the Historical records as a 1st model 2nd issue in a very late shipment in 1868! I sent him photo's of everything. Including the assembly numbers that were visible...If I remember right there was only one number on the barrel that matched the serial number. But he has that information and wrote in the letter!!!! that its a Model 1-2!!
However, the frame clearly shows an "Early" iron 1-3. Plus the cylinder with the patents milled through? My question is simple....Who would do that? Who would mill the cylinder like that? For what purpose? Why bother? It's clearly a 1-2 cylinder! It's not a 1-3 cylinder because it clearly has the patent dates stamped in the proper location for a 1-2 model.
My answer to that question keeps coming up the same..."The factory" is the only entity that would be anal enough to do that in lieu of the introduction of the new model 1-3. Anyone who thinks that milling flutes on a cylinder is a simple task has no knowledge of machining. It's difficult at best to get it precise. A ridiculous concept for faking! Also a ridiculous concept for a put together!
What I'm hoping is that at some point there will be another one that will show up in that late serial number range. In fact I'm surprised that the Historical Department has not seen or recorded another one since some members on this forum claimed to have seen one before. The example that I own was part of a late shipment that contained 100 guns. If only "one other example" shows up and in the exact same configuration in that late serial number range. I'm standing on solid ground! Especially if it has the same milled fluted cylinder with patent dates milled through. Lets also recognize that we have "never" seen that before! I sure haven't! In fact I was very skeptical when I saw the auction for the gun but I simply couldn't get over those patent dates on the fluted cylinder. I had no answer for that...In fact I still don't but "if" there was a transitional model 1-2....Would it have features like my example? I think it would.
Note: Just one more input regarding the cylinder milling through the patent dates? There are actually many examples of over stamping in the firearms industry at that time. Especially during the Cartridge Conversion era. It always involved using up older parts! "And" introducing a new model or new feature so that method was not unusual for that time.
Murph
I've only heard of others having a transitional 1-2 to 1-3 like the one I own. I've never seen another one.
Mr. Jinks says he can't confirm it in the letter that I have for it. So there are no records available that can confirm the configuration.
He does however "confirm the serial number" exists in the Historical records as a 1st model 2nd issue in a very late shipment in 1868! I sent him photo's of everything. Including the assembly numbers that were visible...If I remember right there was only one number on the barrel that matched the serial number. But he has that information and wrote in the letter!!!! that its a Model 1-2!!
However, the frame clearly shows an "Early" iron 1-3. Plus the cylinder with the patents milled through? My question is simple....Who would do that? Who would mill the cylinder like that? For what purpose? Why bother? It's clearly a 1-2 cylinder! It's not a 1-3 cylinder because it clearly has the patent dates stamped in the proper location for a 1-2 model.
My answer to that question keeps coming up the same..."The factory" is the only entity that would be anal enough to do that in lieu of the introduction of the new model 1-3. Anyone who thinks that milling flutes on a cylinder is a simple task has no knowledge of machining. It's difficult at best to get it precise. A ridiculous concept for faking! Also a ridiculous concept for a put together!
What I'm hoping is that at some point there will be another one that will show up in that late serial number range. In fact I'm surprised that the Historical Department has not seen or recorded another one since some members on this forum claimed to have seen one before. The example that I own was part of a late shipment that contained 100 guns. If only "one other example" shows up and in the exact same configuration in that late serial number range. I'm standing on solid ground! Especially if it has the same milled fluted cylinder with patent dates milled through. Lets also recognize that we have "never" seen that before! I sure haven't! In fact I was very skeptical when I saw the auction for the gun but I simply couldn't get over those patent dates on the fluted cylinder. I had no answer for that...In fact I still don't but "if" there was a transitional model 1-2....Would it have features like my example? I think it would.
Note: Just one more input regarding the cylinder milling through the patent dates? There are actually many examples of over stamping in the firearms industry at that time. Especially during the Cartridge Conversion era. It always involved using up older parts! "And" introducing a new model or new feature so that method was not unusual for that time.
Murph
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Since I just purchased a 1 1/2 Second Model a few days ago and already had a 1st, 3rd Model, thought I'd post a comparison of size. Not sure why it imported this photo sideways, but I think you can see the size difference. especially with the difference in cylinder length. The 1 1/2 has the nickel finish and probably shipped around 1873. The 1st, 3rd is lettered as a factory engraved pistol and shipped in 1872.
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