Today's Find: Winchester Model 97 (TD)

[bill-in-texas]

I've wanted one of these as long as I've known about them... maybe, only 20 years or so.

SN places it at 1931*; I hope I look this good if I live to see 90!
The bore is like a perfect tubular mirror and the furniture is very near pristine, showing no signs of sanding or refinishing. The takedown is snug at the collar with zero looseness.

Enjoy the pictures and, for you who have Winchester experience, please share your knowledge.

-Bill

*Edit: Thank you Gunhacker for the 1926 manufacture date in Post 10.
Now, Model 97 is believed to be 95 years old.

 

[S-W4EVER]

Absolutely beautiful. I love looking at old guns.

 

[Rpg]

The '97's are great shooters. They point quickly and very naturally.

 

[.357magger]

Very nice example imo.

Thanks for sharing it.

 

[ReloadforFun]

I'm reminded of my first experience with a model 97. I knew nothing of them, other than they were out there, but a friend had one he wanted to sell. I bought it more as a favor to him.

Of course, once you have something new, you try to find out more about it. Most of the photos I was seeing for 97's were different than mine. It turns out I had a solid frame and the photos were of take downs. Mine is a riot model. To my knowledge all original except for the recoil pad my friend had had installed.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Nicer than mine. I think mine was made around 1917. It has two barrels. Both have the same SN so I know it was shipped with 30" full choke and 20" Cyl. Belonged to my dad. He shot a lot of birds with it in the 50's. That's not a stock recoil pad on mine. Real nice old shotguns. Glad you were able to pick one up.

 

[Sistema1927]

First shotgun experience was with my Great-Grandfather's 16 ga Model 97 TD. It had been passed down to my Dad. He, foolishly in my opinion, had it refinished. About 20 years ago he gave me first dibs when he decided he didn't need long guns anymore. The choices were that 97 or an unfinished Model '06 that was the first fireram of any type that I shot, at age 8.

My younger brother got the 97, but I think that it has languished in his closet ever since due to him not being a gun guy.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I use a Model 97 from 1904 in SASS Wild Bunch matches. You need to load 6 in the mag., but without modification they hold 5-2 3/4 shells!

There is an inexpensive kit from:

Wild Bodie Tom
P.O.Box 1178
Mayer, Az. 86999
602-721-3175

One of the fun things about a '97 is you can hold the trigger and cycle the action, and it will slam fire. With very little practice this is much faster than pulling the trigger each shot! These guns were designed to be used by strong outdoors men, that are excited to get a shot at game or trap, so don't baby it! (that causes short stroking and/or feeding issues)

One maintenance/mechanical note: The ejector is mounted on the outside of the frame (left side) The screw will loosen with recoil and if you don't keep it tight, you will lose the ejector and screw. With postage and S&H, they cost me $52.00 in 2009. I also have a like new 1954 TD (I treat it with respect!)

I found the guns like lots of lubricant, but oil will get gummy with powder at a match so I use Elmer's Dry Lube inside the action. Where two moving parts interact, I only lube one of them. I detail strip and clean every other day of shooting and spray lube the parts and let dry before reassembly.

Ivan

 

[kraynky]

That's been on my want list for 20 + years myself. Good looking one too! Congratulations!

 

[Gunhacker]

That's a nice one, looks to be well taken care and/or not used a whole lot.

Interesting though is a serial number search of your gun on the Winchester Collectors Association website (Dates | Winchester Collector) puts it earlier... 1926.

 

[Thomas M. Black]

As a Winchester collector I've had one for years. I've killed a bunch of turkeys with it an I don't believe you can wear one of them out. As far as I'm concerned, it's not the the prettiest gun Mr. Browning ever designed but it is the neatest.
Tom B.

 

[bushmaster1313]

There might be a plug in the magazine limiting it to holding only two shells.

 

[bill-in-texas]

There might be a plug in the magazine limiting it to holding only two shells.

I'll check. Thank you.
-Bill

 

[Geronimo Jim]

Shoot one every weekend in cowboy action. Love them .... got about
15 of them!

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

A very nice clean example!

Clean ones are getting harder and harder to find. I had three but am down to one now.

 

[bill-in-texas]

Anyone here with a "takedown" model have a good case / carrier recommendation?
-Bill

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

Very nice '97, I have 2, a cutdown mismatch for cas and a norinco trench gun. All my old pump sg's [Marlins and Winchesters] have been modded to hold 6 shells. But another thing is to check for a short chamber and if it has one get it reamed for modern plastic shells. Short chambers are cut for the old shorter paper shells. The issue is when modern plastic shells are fired the folded crimp opens up into the bbl and the shot and wad have to swage down to get through the bbl restriction. Not good for a 90 year old sg plus it increases recoil.

 

[AJ]

Had an 1897 Riot Shotgun years ago. Sold it for more than I paid for it. There are times when I wished that I had kept it.

It was a true Riot Gun, not a cutdown. It was stamped for the N.C. Prison systems.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Your barrel looks to be 30"-32" full like the one I have...........PLEASE...Don't circumsize it short like all these play cowboys do. That ruins the gun.

 

[Muley Gil]

That's a nice looking 97.

I've had two over the years. Both have been take-downs. The first one was traded, along with a .455 2nd model S&W, for a '53 Ford F100. I should have kept the guns.

The second came with a 26" full choke barrel. I found another barrel and cut it to 18 1/2" and it rode in my patrol car for several years. It then became my home defense shotgun. It's a bit older than your, serial number E661xxx.

Funny story: I had to do qualifications with shotgun at the PD. The course of fire was five slugs at 50 yards, followed by five 9 shot 00 buck at 25 yards. Well, I screwed up and shot my 00 at 50 yards. The range master laughed at me UNTIL we went down range and all 45 buckshot were in the kill range. Now this was with a cylinder bore barrel.

The five slugs all went into the 10 ring @ 25 yards.

 

[2152hq]

Model 97's in 12ga are all 2 3/4" chamber length.
They were cut that way from the start of production.

If you measure the chamber length (of a TD model) by simply using the disassembled bbl assembly, you WILL come up with the short chamber length of 2 1/2+" chamber length.
That is because the other 1/4" of the actual chamber is inside the action in the form of the 'chamber ring' that that the bolt fits up against on the inside,,and the bbl fits against when in place on the muzzle side.
That ring and it's 1/4" length is part of the chamber and it's length.

Lengthening the chamber based only on the bbl and that 2 1/2" measurement will leave you with a 3" chambered gun when all is done. The bbl will be (recut to) 2 3/4",, and then add the 1/4" chamber ring.

Winchester did not start marking chamber lengths on the guns till 1935. That's when the 3" 12ga shell was intro'd. Though the M97 was never offered in 3" 12ga, the M12 was.

What some do to 'improve' the older guns is to lengthen the forcing cone. The older forcing cones are short and abrupt. That was for a good seal w/the card & fibre wads of the day.
Recutting the F/Cone to a more gentler angle is more appropriate for the plastic wads used now and can reduce recoil a bit.
However there is only so much metal in the bbl and some careful measureing of the bbl wall must be done before doing and chamber length/forcing cone work. Eyeballing it does not count.
Most of the time all these 'improvements' are un-needed and the guns are just fine as they are.

Great looking 97's

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

Thanks for the clarification 2152.

 

[Iframe32s]

My all-time favorite...IMO one of the greatest shotguns ever developed!

But for the life of me, still can't figure out how "cowboys" used 1897/97s in the 1870s & 1880s.

 

[bill-in-texas]

Your barrel looks to be 30"-32" full like the one I have...

Good eye, Mike.
Yes. The bbl. measures 32".
Edit: I'll run a rod down to the breach face later today, to verify bbl. length.
I was wondering if that was a special order length.

-Bill

 

[Borderboss]

I love my 1897. I bought it for cowboy shooting back in the mid-1990s, before the prices started to get crazy. I got lucky to get one of the last ones built, sometime in the mid-1950s. At the risk of incurring the wrath of Mike, above, I did get the barrel cut down and had a Winchester rubber recoil pad added. Sorry.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

SASS is loosely based on the wild west. There's even a B-Western category if you want to look like Roy or Dale. The guys out on the left coast that created SASS made 1899 the cut off date for the firearms [or reproductions]. And they liked using the '97. You compete against other shooters by category based on style of shooting or type of revolver, age, sex, smokeless or black powder, clothing and accoutrements, etc. If you want to reenact shoot/compete look into NCOWS. They are all about being correct in dress and firearms. Look into GAF if you want to play soldier. The most fun you can have with your clothes on. Here I am as Gabby with my Marlin, 'yer dern tootin.'

 

[Gary M]

I've wanted one of these as long as I've known about them... maybe, only 20 years or so.

SN places it at 1931; I hope I look this good if I live to see 90!
The bore is like a perfect tubular mirror and the furniture is very near pristine, showing no signs of sanding or refinishing. The takedown is snug at the collar with zero looseness.

Enjoy the pictures and, for you who have Winchester experience, please share your knowledge.

Looking at the Winchester Collectors site, the SN places the date of manufacturing as 1926. Some of the other web sources are not correct or accurate, but that site has direct contact with the museum and the actual official polishing records that date the gun.
I have a couple that will never leave while I draw breathe, a 16 gauge take down from 1931 and a solid frame 12 gauge from 1903.

You didn't mention, but is it a 12 or 16? If it is a 16 then it is chambered for 2 9/16 shells, not the current 2 3/4. There is debate about the safety of shooting the modern longer shells in the shorter chamber and I'll not weigh in on it other than to say mine is the shorter and I had it reamed to accept the longer as better safe than sorry.

If you have any questions about yours, that site is an invaluable source of information and Bert H. has done extensive research on that particular model.

 

[bill-in-texas]

Looking at the Winchester Collectors site, the SN places the date of manufacturing as 1926.

Yes, sir. Duly noted from post 10, as well.
Thank you Gary.

You didn't mention, but is it a 12 or 16?

Oops... It's a 12 Gauge.

If you have any questions about yours, that site is an invaluable source of information and Bert H. has done extensive research on that particular model.

I'll join today. I certainly have some questions. Thanks for the help!

-Bill

 

[Gary M]

No problem.

You will now be able to have a whole new appreciation for the words "slide bite".

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Good eye, Mike.
Yes. The bbl. measures 32".
Edit: I'll run a rod down to the breach face later today, to verify bbl. length.
I was wondering if that was a special order length.

-Bill

Most the mdl 12's and 97's came with longer barrels and full choke. You see way more of the longer ones that short ones. BTW Both of mine the mdl 12 and the mdl 97 have 32" full choke barrels. I have killed many deer with both. They pattern buckshot like a rifle.