Too much leading? How to avoid / clean?

[sw282]

l have read thru this thread 3 times. l still dont know what caused the
excessive leading. l do suspect it may be the ammo. l propose another
BRAND of ammo be tried. lf the leading disappears, lt was the ammo..
lf leading is present a second time, time to call the factory..

 

[twodog max]

To get leading that bad all it takes is one bad bullet that leaves a lot of lead then each successive bullet is then damaged and deposits more lead. I once had a similar problem with some very soft swaged wadcutters in a Colt. I did not use those again.

Once you get that cleaned out shoot something different and keep an eye on the bore so it does not get that bad again.

When you clean get it all out or you will be back to square one again.

 

[grizz700]

I run Freedom Munitions in my 44 and have not had a leading issue. Couple of passes with my bronze brush and I am good to go again.

 

[glenwolde]

Hard for me to believe it's just the ammo. The most likely cause is the bullet is way undersized for the bore for some reason. Now that could be the bullet is undersized from the manufacturer, the bore is oversized, or the throats are undersized and swaging the bullets down. Would such a grossly undersized bullet would even stay in the case, if that was the only problem?

This incident is so bad that it might be two of the above. What needs to happen is mic the bullet, the throats, and slug the barrel. S&W barrels are hard to slug without the proper jig, as the odd number of lands gives you no direct measurement.

S&W or a gunsmith could figure this out for you without a lot of effort. I'd mic a bullet and if that seemed OK I'd send it back. If I wanted to do it myself I'd buy some inside pin gauges to measure the throats and send off a barrel slug to Dardas bullets, they will measure it for you.

But you are highly likely to find something out of spec with the gun if those bullets mic out close to OK so you'll end up sending it back anyway.

There's other possibilities but those are the things I'd look at first. I'm no fan of Freedom Munitions but I'm sure they sell lots of that ammo and it can't be happening to everybody.

For a quick check of the throats you can take an unloaded bullet and try to push it into the chamber throat from the front of the cylinder. It should slide in with just moderate thumb pressure. If it falls through from it's own weight the throats are to big, if you can't get it in at all they are too tight. Only inside pin gauges will tell you by how much.

If I was a gambling man my best guess for a single problem is the throats are way undersized. The good news is that's an easy fix.

 

[andyo5]

As previously stated there could be several reasons for this. If they are full power magnum loads, you should be shooting jacketed bullets. If they were jacketed and still gave you leading, there is something seriously wrong with either the ammo or the gun. I have been finding that with lead bullets, softer alloys are better for lower power loads and give little to no leading. Higher power loads (supersonic, above 1100 ft./sec) work better with harder alloys.
Consider investing in a Lewis Lead Remover to get rid of this lead.

 

[Nightowl]

Wow! Never seen anything like that before! I would think that it would be more than just the ammo, as earlier comments stated. Once you get the gun cleaned, you might try some Remington or Winchester jacketed soft point ammo and see if there is any problems and if they are accurate. If they don't shoot well, you may have a gun problem. Like the rest, I would like to know if the barrel is within tolerances and the throats are .429. The throats on my old 29-2 are .432, which was common back then, and it never leaded that bad.

 

[os2firefox]

I took your advice and emailed the pictures to SW as well as Freedom Munitions two days ago. Still have not heard anything.

Took a look at the 629 again. It has a 6 1/2" barrel and I noticed that the first part of the barrel looked clean. The second half is where the leading gradually begins.

Looking at the freedom munitions site, they are using X-treme plated bullets for their .44 MAG RNFP rounds loaded to 1240 fps.

When I bought the revolver, I took it out and shot 6 rounds of mag tech ammo and it seemed fine afterwards (didn't notice lead in the bore). Afterwards, I sent it in to get it refinished in melonite. A guy on another forum suggested that it was possible for the new finish to increase the velocity of the bullet... I am not sure if it is possible that the X-treme bullets are exceeding their maximum fps?

By the way, I faintly remember when I was extracting one of the last loads, a piece of bullet plating fell out of somewhere. The revolver continued shooting dead-on, made 6 holes in the paper, and nothing appeared obstructed from behind (range officer wouldn't have taken kindly to looking in the wrong end of the barrel even if it was empty).

Anyways, depending on what they reply, my plan is to clean out the lead and try jacketed bullets. Since this is my only revolver, I don't have the tools to measure the throats, yet :/

 

[sw282]

l did some reading on Melonite...l think they coated the inside of the barrel too..Somehow making its surface rough.. Get some more Freedom Munitions 44 ammo and shoot it in your gun and another gun for comparison. lf the borrowed gun were ok and yours leaded up again, theres your answer.

 

[avery53]

I and a friend have shot thousands of X-treme plated bullets and not had a leading problem. Something else is at play here!

 

[H Richard]

I'll join the group that has never ever seen leading that extreme. I have loaded ans shot many thousands of cast lead bullets, in .32, 38, 44, 45, and even 7mm, (the 7mm at 1800 fps), and have never had leading like that. I will offer one possibility, that the crimp on the "plated" bullets is too much, cutting through the plating, and when fired the plating strips back and swagged lead is exposed. If this could be the case there is also the danger of plating sticking in the bore and the possibility of catastrophic results. The cause is really needed to be found out. I would also clean completely and fire a few jacketed to see the results, then just a few at a time of the "plated" rounds, inspecting the barrel after every couple of rounds.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I recently purchased a S&W 952-1, the owner was very honest with me, said it did not shoot very well in his hands. When I got it, I was very happy with the condition on the outside. The first thing I did was to strip her down and noted that the back 1/2 of the bore was leaded so bad you could not see the lands. Looked as bad as yours!!

I ran a patch soaked with CLP through the bore and like yours, the patch tore up on the leading. I let it sit for a while, then pulled my Lewis Lead Remover through the bore and most of the lead came out after a little work. Then a bronze brush soaked in Bore Butter, and again the Lewis Lead Remover, kept at this until it looked clean.

JB Bore cleaner was the next step Continued with patches and finished up with patches soaked in alcohol until they came out squeaky clean and them some patches soaked with Bore Butter.. I let it sit for that night well soaked up with the Bore Butter then shot her using lead cast lubed bullets. Took 20 shots to sight her in and then shot an one hole group of 8 shots at 88 yards, two that were my fault were 1 inch out of the group.

I have no idea what the first owner shot through her, but it was definitely a bullet problem. From the looks of the pistol I doubt that there were over 200 rounds through her when I got her.

Today she is one of my most accurate pistols.

My suggestion, stick with it and give her a chance.

 

[glenwolde]

Well...the plot thickens. Maybe it is at least partially the bullet. Sort of.

Leading only at the rear of the barrel is cause by gas blowing by the bullet base because the bullet fails to obturate due to too low a pressure or too hard a bullet, or both. Light loads with hard cast bullets will do this.

Leading in the forward portion only is usually the bullet failing to be hard enough as it accelerates down the barrel. As the plating is worn off in it's travels down the barrel you're left with a bare lead core which will lead like crazy at the velocity you're dealing with.

If the inside of the barrel is coated that's going to make the barrel a bit tight until it wears off (it will). It could be the gun as S&W built it is fine, but a combination of the new barrel coating and plated bullets is the problem.

You could clean it, and run a few hundred quality jacketed bullets through it. That should wear the barrel in. Then try the plated again. Or you could fire-lap it, but that would require you to be a reloader and may be a bit above your experience level (no offense).

I have a Lewis Lead Remover but rarely use it anymore. If you get a quality brass jag tip (not a slotted one, or a plastic one) and use a patch cut from lead remover cloth it will do just as good a job as the Lewis Lead Remover.

Spear Tip .357/.38-9mm Jag
Birchwood Casey Cloth 6" x 9" Lead Remover w/ Cloth Poly Bag 31002 029057310023

 

[os2firefox]

No offense taken - I got into this hobby a couple of years ago and know that I am new...

Update:

1) Freedom Munitions has not responded to the pictures and question I sent them.

2) Smith and Wesson said it was a bullet/ammo problem.

3) Got the Lewis Lead Remover and ran it through the barrel a bunch of times until lead seemed to stop coming out. Lands looked fine, but a little bit of lead was present in the grooves.

4) Got some boxes of Hornandy JHPs and ran 24 rounds. On the first 6 rounds, I ran the Lewis Lead Remover after each round. Looked like there was more barrel fouling for the first 6 rounds. On the rest, I ran the lead remover every 6 rounds and barrel fouling didn't look that bad. Also noticed that there was not a black cloud of smoke coming from the muzzle after each shot, like there was when I was shooting Freedom Munitions.

5) When I came home, I noticed some copper streaks in the barrel. Is this normal?

6) I ran the lead remover and a bore snake and some of the fouling bits were clean up, but copper streaks remained:

7) Also noticed a machining mark on the muzzle end. Do you think it matters?

8) Ammo had a bit more kick than the Freedom Munitions one and beat up the webbing on my hand. I was thinking of getting some Pachmayr Decelerators. Are there any better options and this is a round butt right?

Another theory that was floated was that the barrel was cut a bit rough at Smith and Wesson. The melonite treatment hardened the bore, which puts wear on the bullet plating. If that's the case, it would have been better to shoot 100-200 jacketed rounds through the revolver to "break it in" before treating... Not sure if that's the case.

 

[chief38]

A mark on the muzzle end of a barrel is the worst place to have a mark as muzzle is the last place the bullet touches before free flight. This could indeed affect accuracy and if it was there when you got it new, I'd send it back and have Smith either remove it or replace the barrel.

Jacketed bullets sometimes do leave Copper marks inside, but should NOT require a Lewis Lead Remover pass every 6 rounds. Copper should be removed chemically with a Copper solvent and a Bore Brush made from Nylon and not with the LLR. The LLR is for LEAD. Bronze brushes are attacked by the Copper solvent since they contain Copper so when using Copper solent, get some good quality Nylon brushes..

 

[os2firefox]

Darn, I wish i had seen that sooner. I doubt I could find someone reasonably priced to fix it or that sw would cover me under warranty :/

On the flip side, I still group better with it than I do with my semi autos, so I guess it's not the end of the world for me.

 

[H Richard]

That little scratch on the muzzle doesn't look like it touches the mouth of the rifling. If it doesn't it will have no impact on the shooting, and is only cosmetic. If it does, dig into the rifling, S&W should be able to polish it out. You should go to a PPC match and see the condition of the muzzle's of numerous custom guns that are shooting under 2" at 50 yards, you wouldn't worry about that little scratch.

 

[os2firefox]

Update: Freedom Munitions responded by asking for information and saying that they want to make it right by replacing the ammo or issuing a refund for the 500 rounds I bought for them.

 

[Doubless]

"4) Got some boxes of Hornandy JHPs and ran 24 rounds. On the first 6 rounds, I ran the Lewis Lead Remover after each round. Looked like there was more barrel fouling for the first 6 rounds. On the rest, I ran the lead remover every 6 rounds and barrel fouling didn't look that bad. Also noticed that there was not a black cloud of smoke coming from the muzzle after each shot, like there was when I was shooting Freedom Munitions."

This statement says volumes: it explains what happened. What you experienced was severe leading due to the jacket breaking down and an undersized projectile being shot down that barrel at excessive speed.

You state that Freedom Munitions uses swaged lead as the core for their plated bullets. That swaged lead is just that: lead only. It is so soft you can carve it with a pen knife.

I cannot give you the mechanism for what happened, but that "black cloud of smoke" you saw when firing the Freedom Munitions ammo was vaporized lead exiting the barrel, if I am a betting man. It couldn't be bullet lube smoke, as there is no lube on the projectiles, and I don't know of a smokeless powder out there that produces "black smoke" when burned.

I would be very judicious if you go the replacement ammo route: watch VERY closely what happens when you fire the first few rounds. If the problem shows up again, it is ammunition you simply cannot use in THAT firearm. Again, I can't tell you why, but something is very amiss with Freedom Munitions ammo in that particular revolver...

Good luck!

 

[Pisgah]

Worst leading I ever saw came from undersized, plated bullets. Most folks do not understand that the "plating" on these bullets is very, very thin and the lead is very, very soft. The plating does just about absolutely nothing to prevent leading if A) the velocity is too high, and/or B)the bullets are undersized.

Another thing -- I have learned never to fire lead or plated bullets in a bore that has fired jacketed rounds unless I have made the bore squeaky clean before switching from plated to lead. Something about that jacket fouling really doesn't like having lead slide over it.

 

[Tom S.]

Regarding your question on the copper, the Lewis lead remover is just that - a lead remover. It will have no effect on the copper. Some copper fouling is to be expected, but I think given the amount of lead you had and now the amount of copper, your biggest problem is a rough bore. Get some copper cleaning solvent to remove the copper fouling and then look at the barrel under magnification if possible.

The only other possible cause that comes to my old mind is timing. Generally though, you'd know if there was a timing issue, as the gap between the front of the cylinder and the barrel would spit lead or copper particles. So that takes me back to the bore. If magnification shows a rough bore, I would send it back to S&W. Were it a gun bought second hand, fire lapping could help, but it's not something I would do to new gun without giving the factory a chance to make it right. If they agree the barrel is rough, they will either lap it, or more likely replace it.