Traffic Stop

[brokenprism]

The Trooper was being polite by asking instead of telling.

"I don't know what you teach these fellows, but they're not just regular cops, okay...? They're supercops, and the only thing missing on these guys are capes."

 

[J. W.]

Does TX law state that legally-carried guns can be seized? If not, under what authority can you seize a legally-carried gun on a traffic stop without any reasonable suspicion to believe the carrier is dangerous? I only ask because in my state, the statute does not say anything about the police being allowed to seize a legally-carried gun on a traffic stop that has nothing to do with the guy being dangerous.

I do not know, sir. The incident in the OP happened in WV and I can only speak for law and procedure here in WV. I, however, don't think you'll find such a statement in any state statute. The weapon would be secured under the guise of officer safety.

Remember, you know you're a good guy, but the officer making the traffic stop doesn't. A valid CCW isn't an automatic "good guy card" either. I've arrested more than a few people for crimes they committed while carrying on a valid CCW.

He above is not to say that I do or agree with taking every legally carried weapon on a traffic stop. Just trying to offer a little insight.





Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

 

[COL Jagdog]

As a reserve officer for a local police department, I do not have nearly the experience of the other LEO's on this forum -- but I do have plenty of experience regarding civilians carrying weapons both in the US and overseas -- I simply use caution and presence of mind -- it has worked well.

In Louisiana, carrying loaded weapons in vehicles is legal (anywhere, under the seat, console, glove box, side door pocket, between the seat and console, etc) and I and every other LEO I know of (state, parish, city) approaches a vehicle expecting that a gun may be present in the vehicle -- my patrol partner and I remain alert for the open presence of a weapon, and if they try to access a console or glove box (for example to find their registrtion or proof of insurance), we may ask if they have a gun in the area they are trying to access -- we have never had a problem. Unless we have PC, there is no reason to ask to examine a weapon or run a serial number.

 

[szuppo]

When asked to put it on the passenger seat you should have declined for his safety and yours. When asked if his partner could open your car door and retrieve the gun you again, should have declined.

 

[MaximumLawman]

I do not know, sir. The incident in the OP happened in WV and I can only speak for law and procedure here in WV. I, however, don't think you'll find such a statement in any state statute. The weapon would be secured under the guise of officer safety.

There are state statutes in some states that grant officers the authority to temporarily seize legally-carried guns during routine police encounters with CPL holders, ie. encounters where the police have no reasonable belief that the subject is dangerous. In the absence of such a statute, or case law, I can't see any reason to seize the gun. There is no "officer safety exception" to the search warrant rule or 4th amendment. I see cops do constitutionally questionable things all the time "for officer safety". Unless you have a reason to believe someone is armed AND dangerous, you can't start disarming someone "for officer safety". Nor can you handcuff them "for your safety and mine" without a valid reason. Taking a gun away from someone is a seizure. To seize something you need more than "the guise of officer safety".

 

[SMSgt]

It is my belief that an officer can take control of a firearm for his safety.

 

[MaximumLawman]

It is my belief that an officer can take control of a firearm for his safety.

In the absence of a state statute or case law that says you can seize the gun without any reason other than the fact that the guy you stop for running the stop sign is carrying with just as much legality as you are, it must also stand to reason that you can pat down everyone you stop for traffic "for officer safety". Because the guy who is going to shoot you isn't going to tell you he has a CPL permit, is armed and then hand the gun over to you "for officer safety". So if you can take a legal gun from a legal carrier for your safety, how come you can't just search everyone you stop for your safety, since the guy who wants to do you harm isn't going to tell you he's armed? The reason is: The 4th amendment. Cops get away with doing a lot of stuff that they technically aren't "allowed" to do, based on "officer safety". That is, until it's gets challenged and new law is made, for or against.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

It is my belief that an officer can take control of a firearm for his safety.

I tend to disagree. The way I see it, it violates the fourth and second Amendments both. In the Indianapolis area, some people refuse to pull over for unmarked cars without getting a second unit sent out. There are some people out there who are criminals and manage to convince people they're police officers to get the upper-hand. I want an equal right to defend myself from everyone.
I'm all for officer's safety, that's why they get guns and vests, but not at the sacrifice of my safety.

 

[brokenprism]

There are state statutes in some states that grant officers the authority to temporarily seize legally-carried guns during routine police encounters with CPL holders, ie. encounters where the police have no reasonable belief that the subject is dangerous. In the absence of such a statute, or case law, I can't see any reason to seize the gun. There is no "officer safety exception" to the search warrant rule or 4th amendment. I see cops do constitutionally questionable things all the time "for officer safety". Unless you have a reason to believe someone is armed AND dangerous, you can't start disarming someone "for officer safety". Nor can you handcuff them "for your safety and mine" without a valid reason. Taking a gun away from someone is a seizure. To seize something you need more than "the guise of officer safety".

I respect the difficulties of the job cops do, but I'm with you on this.

The earlier post about the State Trooper doing the driver a favor by asking instead of telling left a little acid in my craw. What's the harm? Civility suffered severely. We're all citizen equals -- some of us empower others of us to do a unique job, but I think the badge starts feeling like a cape on some cops, hence my use of the Beverly Hills quote.

We've come a long way from neighborhood cops in blue to legions of troopers, with thigh rigs and tinted visors, in black. Some day it's going to be important that we can tell a cop from a DHS soldier. At least I hope it will be important.

 

[Springfeildkid585]

We've come a long way from neighborhood cops in blue to legions of troopers, with thigh rigs and tinted visors, in black. Some day it's going to be important that we can tell a cop from a DHS soldier. At least I hope it will be important.

I'm with you there, I'm a current Crim student. For awhile I wanted to be a Fed. I wanted to arrest "real criminals". More recently, as I've been interacting with members of law enforcement at many levels, I'm starting to see the need for the local "beat" cop, and the necessity of the civil, day-to-day, "community policing". That's what I want to be now, the kind of man we were taught police were when we were little kids. Not a quasi-military authority figure, but a proper public servant.

 

[glasseye 44]

In Texas, when stopped you are only required to present CHL and DL if you have a weapon in your possesion.

Not armed just hand them your DL.

That the law.

 

[mkk41]

That's correct checking if stolen. In WV if you have a WV CCW they already know when they run you tag before they get out of the car usually, the dispatcher will tell them you have a CCW. I hear it on the scanner all the time when they pull over a WV CCW licensee. Weather you are carrying on not they don't know , they may ask, may not. WV is also a open carry state. It sometimes creates a problem telling you are carrying but if you don't and a partner or them see it could raise their eyebrows. The call is yours WV is also a not required to notify state. You are not statutorily required to inform law enforcement you are carrying a weapon in the state of West Virginia.

And if the driver is NOT the registered owner (spouse,child,parent)?

 

[44 Mag Fan]

I have been in Law Enforcement for over 25 years. Most of the people that I have stopped usually inform me that they have a CCW to carry. I would prefer that they tell me where the weapon is, but if they don't, no problem, I just become more aware of what they are doing. Here in Alabama almost everyone carries with a permit or not. If they don't have a CCCW then I do what I have to do. After working for years as one of only 2 deputies on the night shift, and your backup could be 30 minutes away no matter how fast they drive you tend to become more aware of what's going on during a traffic stop and you act accordingly .After all, my main focus is me getting home safe, not you..

 

[Yiogo]

I keep hearing to inform the officer if one is carrying concealed and have a CCP because. He sees the permit and he doesn't know you are a good guy. I had to have a heavy duty background check when I got my permit and have had one for every firearm I've bought. I'm just wondering if there are some states that give bad guys concealed carry permits and refuse to give them to the good guys? No wonder everyone is jumpy on this thread. Yiogo

 

[M3Stuart]

By the time I retired (2001) CCW was not common place as it is now. On the few occasions I stopped a driver who informed me they were CCW, I asked to see their permit, and asked where the weapon was. I then asked/informed them to leave the weapon where it was, and we went about our business and everyone went home happy.

Perhaps I'm being naive but I just don't see any reason to detain and perhaps harass someone who is in compliance with the law.

Yes, that's been PRECISELY my, and ALL of my acquantances experience in Texas. (I've been told in the CHL class that it is somehow indicated on your DL too, I'm sure it's in the computer).

 

[M3Stuart]

In Texas, when stopped you are only required to present CHL and DL if you have a weapon in your possesion.

Not armed just hand them your DL.

That the law.

Oops, I better check on that. I thought you didn't have to show them the CHL anymore.

Thanks for that info!

EDIT: I just checked, and, YOU SIR ARE CORRECT! In Texas, the CHL holder must carry their CHL if they are carrying a concealed handgun.

 

[Poodle Soup]

I keep hearing to inform the officer if one is carrying concealed and have a CCP because. He sees the permit and he doesn't know you are a good guy. I had to have a heavy duty background check when I got my permit and have had one for every firearm I've bought. I'm just wondering if there are some states that give bad guys concealed carry permits and refuse to give them to the good guys? No wonder everyone is jumpy on this thread. Yiogo

Bad guys are good guys until the first time they do something bad.... Guy in my town was shot and killed by a police officer. He was a drunk/stoned ccw permit holder waving a gun around at people.
http://www.radioiowa.com/2012/11/19/waterloo-man-shot-and-killed-by-police/
^ Law was cleared by a jury. The shooting was justified. But of course people are in a uproar because the police here are racist and murdered him on purpose for some reason.....

 

[Kanewpadle]

I keep hearing to inform the officer if one is carrying concealed and have a CCP because. He sees the permit and he doesn't know you are a good guy. I had to have a heavy duty background check when I got my permit and have had one for every firearm I've bought. I'm just wondering if there are some states that give bad guys concealed carry permits and refuse to give them to the good guys? No wonder everyone is jumpy on this thread. Yiogo

That's not realistic. People get their permits but don't know the laws because they don't care enough to read them. And just because you passed a background check then doesn't mean you have committed a crime since then.

Ever hear of people in the military that had secret or top secret security clearance and still went bad?

 

[Kanewpadle]

To each their own. Things differ in certain locales or regions. Know your local laws.

Said this before a few times. While working part time at a local gun shop, I took a poll with LEO that used our range for training. I asked if they pulled me over, would they like to know that I am legally armed? Out of approximately 20 polled all but one said yes. And almost everyone of those said that they would be suspicious as to what else you were hiding if you didn't offer that information.

As to handing over my gun? Ain't gonna happen. If an officer wants my gun he will have to get it himself. Even if he has to cuff me first. I ain't stupid enough to handle a gun in the presence of an officer so he can misinterpret my actions and shoot me. No disrespect to them at all. Just careful.

 

[Road Rat]

I guess I don't understand furnishing information to the officer that is not required by law and is not relevant to the traffic stop.

The officer stopped you for a traffic offense......this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you have a carry permit.

My opening that can of worms you just created more problems. If you are asked to get out of the car.........then you mention that you have a permit and that you are armed!