Trail Boss and jacketed bullets are a no go

[dacoontz]

NINE BULLETS ...........................!!!

No holes in a target or at least dust being kicked up in all those shots ............
with out a notice?

Here's your sign.

I was thinking the same thing. The guy must have really low self esteem.

 

[reddog81]

Picture looks like it could be legit to me, just a bad photo. Why else would someone fill the barrel with bullets and cross section it?

 

[pittpa]

There was a 686 with 6 bullets stacked a few years ago that didnt blow up. Seems I saw it in this forum. You got to have enough gas to get to where you are going. Beginners luck. Is that barrel a smooth bore?

More like 7. This one looks like a 66. Owner had a new barrel installed. Damn, this OP has submitted a new record.

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[austinjeane]

Theoretically a jacketed bullet would produce less friction than a cast lead bullet so it should transverse the barrel (rifling) more easily. The problem is probably a reloading mistake, not the use of Trail Boss.

 

[Nemo288]

Well that is where theory and practice seem to part ways.
It is my experience that cast bullets, gas check or not, go faster than jacketed with a given load.
It is generally accepted that lead has LESS friction than copper.
The QuickLOAD internal ballistics program uses a number about 50% more for the start friction of copper bullets over cast.
Brass: 445 made from WW 30-40
Primer: WLR unplated
Powder: 30 grains IMR 4227
COAL: 2.08"
Gun: 17" Encore custom barrel
Chronograph: Magnetospeed V.2
Bullet: 280 Swift A Frame FPS: 1731
Bullet: 280 Beartooth WFNGC FPS: 1823

The Swift does have a very long, hard, shank but this is a typical although extreme example.

 

[4barrel]

More like 7. This one looks like a 66. Owner had a new barrel installed. Damn, this OP has submitted a new record.

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My hero- Some people think some of my posts are stretched.

 

[pittpa]

My hero- Some people think some of my posts are stretched.

Oh, your memory is intact. You can use this post to prove it.
So your handle, quadrajet, holly, what?

 

[austinjeane]

I apologize for not stating my point more clearly. A jacketed bullet would create less friction in a barrel than a cast bullet. The cast bullet would odurate to the bore and and cause higher pressures, friction (in the barrel) and require reduced powder loads due to higher pressures. The pressure factor is why you cannot mix cast and jacketed load data. The jacketed bullet does not obdurate, but after the bullet leaves the barrel, velocity is another matter.

 

[4barrel]

I apologize for not stating my point more clearly. A jacketed bullet would create less friction in a barrel than a cast bullet. The cast bullet would odurate to the bore and and cause higher pressures, friction (in the barrel) and require reduced powder loads due to higher pressures. The pressure factor is why you cannot mix cast and jacketed load data. The jacketed bullet does not obdurate, but after the bullet leaves the barrel, velocity is another matter.

Actually lead has a lot less friction. The lead I shoot have lube grooves unless coated. A jacketed bullet the same weight has more surface. When I Look at a reloading manual the same weight bullet lead or jacket with the same powder charge--the lead is faster.

 

[Mike in Reedley]

I apologize for not stating my point more clearly. A jacketed bullet would create less friction in a barrel than a cast bullet. The cast bullet would odurate to the bore and and cause higher pressures, friction (in the barrel) and require reduced powder loads due to higher pressures. The pressure factor is why you cannot mix cast and jacketed load data. The jacketed bullet does not obdurate, but after the bullet leaves the barrel, velocity is another matter.

Both jacketed and cast are oversized to the bore, so they both are being swedged down to bore diameter. Lead has less friction as it's softer and has a lower coefficient of friction, or so I believe anyway.

 

[Nemo288]

Actually lead has a lot less friction.

And I believe that jacketed bullets can obturate at least a little.
Solids are another matter entirely.
I have presented what little scientific evidence I have above in picture form.
Given that cylinder throat dimensions can be all over the place one cannot assume any given bullet is going to be the proper amount oversize.
Many jacketed bullets will never be large enough to fill the .432 and .433 holes in mid 1980's 44's.
The reason many cast loads have lower powder and power is to keep the velocity down.
This is supposed to keep lead fouling in the barrel down with the softer lead alloys.
With a hard alloy and gas check there is no need to do this.
We shoot cast bullets well over 2000 fps all the time with the 444.

 

[dave201]

OK.
Details.
What was the load?
TB can't be blamed if the load did not create enough fps (pressure).
I have shot many TB loads with jacketed bullets in 44 spl and never had a stuck bullet.
I always aim for at LEAST 650 fps.
700+ preferred.
Admittedly I shoot these in a 696 which has a 3" barrel.
Never heard of the ban on jacketed with Trail Boss.
Riflemen use it all the time for reduced loads.
I'm with Ivan.
Something is missing here.
And NO I am not accusing Taro of anything. He is a genuine member I respect.
I am quite willing to admit it all happened that way.
Just want the facts Ma'am.

Sounds reasonable to me. Never had a Trailboss problem

 

[metalman60]

Interesting Example

I think the cut-away barrel is being used as a visual aid, to establish an opinion that Trail Boss powder does not work well with jacketed ammo. Why anyone would spend the time to create such a visual example, is beyond my understanding.

 

[Wee Hooker]

I can say that I've had outstanding results with Trail Boss under 125gr plated bullets in 38 special range loads. In fact,TB tested most accurate out of a half dozen powders with these bullets. Pleasant shooting too. I've been using these as my training rounds for newbies.

 

[austinjeane]

The hardness of a metal is not the same as the friction it may or may not produce in a given circumstance.

 

[Speedo2]

The hardness of a metal is not the same as the friction it may or may not produce in a given circumstance.

You should spend some time with a chronograph to ascertain the validity of what others have told you: cast lead bullets will have higher velocities than jacketed (or plated) bullets of the same weight and approximate shape, fired from the same gun, and loaded to the same specifications.

What physical or chemical constraints, other than frictional losses, could account for the velocity difference? (Electro-magnetic, hyposonic-coriollis, and/or ectoplasmatic effects not withstanding ) Check it out for yourself.

 

[Vigo]

Does anyone know when and what prompted the manufacturer to move from dissuading reloaders from using jacketed bullets with Trail Boss? It has been one of a couple powders I use for several years, and when I started using it, they warned to use only lead bullets with it. The reloading manuals I have that do have Tail Boss (which is not many compared to other powders) only listed lead bullets.

Did anyone ever test Trail Boss specifically with jacketed and with plated bullets (i.e. not just lead)? I shoot almost entirely soft lead bullets from my .38s, but it's always good to learn more/different loadings for the powders I do have.

 

[BC38]

The hardness of a metal is not the same as the friction it may or may not produce in a given circumstance.

True, as long as you are just talking about surfaces that are only sliding over one another.

HOWEVER, when you are cutting a metal - like when the rifling is scoring the surface of a bullet - softer metals deform more easily and take less effort to produce a cut of the same dimensions.

That effort requires energy. Copper being harder than lead more energy is dissipated for the rifling to score the surface. That lost energy translates to a loss in velocity.

 

[Doubless]

Slightly off topic, but many years ago I was talking to a friend about the IHMSA internationals, held every other year at Ft. Stockton, if memory serves. I had just taken ownership of my 654 Silhouette, and was talking to Terry about how strong they were. He told me that he asked the same question of the marketing director a few years earlier, and was told this anecdote:

The guy came to me in the middle of a course and said "I think I ruined my revolver." When I asked him what he had done, he told me that he thought he had fired a squib and followed it with a full power silhouette load out of his 44 Mag silhouette from Freedom Arms. When asked why he thought that had happened he told the marketing director that he had a round that didn't feel right when he fired it, and that he had missed a chicken (pretty rare at 50 yards). The man said that the next shot had incredible recoil, and that was a miss as well, that recoil had sent the revolver almost 90 degrees from his leg, and well above the normal point where recoil stopped the revolver. Marty (the marketing director) told the guy "Well, you didn't hurt it, but don't be doing that @^*$ any more." They then went to the mat on the line the guy was lying on, and Marty said the man was shooting Hornady 240-grain Silhouette bullets.

I cannot verify the truthfulness of this, but I also have no reason to doubt it.

 

[Nemo288]

Did anyone ever test Trail Boss specifically with jacketed and with plated bullets (i.e. not just lead)? I shoot almost entirely soft lead bullets from my .38s, but it's always good to learn more/different loadings for the powders I do have.

In fact most of the few Trail Boss loads (as well as Tin Star) I have worked up have been with plated bullets.
I prefer the Rainier as they are concentric and have a shallow hollow base.
As noted above I try to keep them above 650 fps.
No problems noted.
Many plated bullet makers suggest using cast bullet loading data or at least starting there.
The Gold Dot SD bullets are plated bullets BTW.

I shoot very few jacketed bullets any more especially in the 44 special and don't shoot magnums much at all.
I want to release some energy I go supermag or express rounds like the 444.

As far as the "friction" thing goes, anyone who has slugged a bore knows it takes a bit of careful doing to get that bullet thru the barrel without dinging it.
That's why the softest lead slugs are used.
I would not want to be the guy who tries to slug a barrel using a jacketed bullet.
I suspect you would need some kind of hydraulic assistance if it could even be done without scoring the bore.

I have never played with moly intentionally and don't intend on doing so.
Once used a powdered plastic case filler that had moly in it (Pufflon) but gave it up mostly because of the utter mess.
It's as fine as dust.
Grex or similar shotgun buffer is way easier to use as are foam wads.