Training Scars

Smoke

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One of the things my instructor stresses is if you are going through a training drill and you bobble it do not stop and start over (assuming safety isn't compromised) but solve the problem and continue the drill.

His rationale is if you train your mind to stop and start over every time you make a mistake in practice that's exactly what you'll do in the field.


Thoughts?
 
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Yes... I agree... Every scenario is not going to be the same....Your stress levels might be higher than normal...And you might bobble... work through it...

At my job, we were chasing a stolen car with 3 bad guys in it... long story short ... we had a bail out ... I stopped my cruiser, well my partner didn't and crashed into me. Causing my left hand (shooting hand) to slam into the door jam. My 1st finger went numb as well as me biting my tongue pretty good. Did I just stop and wait for the pain to go away? Negative..

I put chase on the bad guys and when time to draw I just transitioned into my right hand....

Now i train weak hand shooting all the time so I just went with it.

Trust me, the 1st time, If you have not already, drawn down on a live body, it probably wont be as smooth or clean as a day at the range... Work through it and press on...
 
Trust me, the 1st time, If you have not already, drawn down on a live body, it probably wont be as smooth or clean as a day at the range... Work through it and press on...

Not sure I would define it as "drawing" but I confronted an intruder in my home almost 20 years ago.

Long story short the maintenance man was working on my kitchen sink with out telling anyone he was in there or giving me notice and I walked in on him.

But when I walked through the door all I knew was someone was in my house and they were not obeying my commands to show me their hands.

What I remember was

My eyes were so dilated I could barely see
I could hear the blood rushing through my ears.
My breathing sounded (to me) like Darth Vader
I could feel my heart beat
and all I remember seeing was my front sight and a blob.

When the maintenance man (who turned out to be in the beginning stages of dementia) saw me he started screaming "I'm fixing your sink, I'm fixing your sink" and all the symptoms (for lack of a better word) went a way.

That's about as close as I ever want to get
 
Not sure I would define it as "drawing" but I confronted an intruder in my home almost 20 years ago.

Long story short the maintenance man was working on my kitchen sink with out telling anyone he was in there or giving me notice and I walked in on him.

But when I walked through the door all I knew was someone was in my house and they were not obeying my commands to show me their hands.

What I remember was

My eyes were so dilated I could barely see
I could hear the blood rushing through my ears.
My breathing sounded (to me) like Darth Vader
I could feel my heart beat
and all I remember seeing was my front sight and a blob.

When the maintenance man (who turned out to be in the beginning stages of dementia) saw me he started screaming "I'm fixing your sink, I'm fixing your sink" and all the symptoms (for lack of a better word) went a way.

That's about as close as I ever want to get


I hear ya.... Most people think "Oh yea I train at the range.... or I went to this CCW tacti-cool class"

When its real.... the ohhhh **** factor rings its bell loud....
 
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

In my martial arts school we teach exactly that. Whatever you do, do something. We start with this philosophy from day one.

It's common to have a new student not remember all the moves in a technique. That's fine, it will come with time. But, even when trying it for the first time, don't stop until you've had an effect on the bad guy. I don't care if what you do is not part of the scripted technique, do something.
 
My favorite "training scar" story...

We teach a gun take away technique. The instructor who taught me, told us this true story.

An off duty policeman was in a convenient store one evening. A bad guy came in and pointed a gun at the officer. He use the technique to successfully get the gun away from the bad guy, AND THEN HE HANDED IT BACK!!! Yep, in practice, they would take the practice gun away and then hand it back to their partner to do it again. This is exactly what he did in the store.

Both parties stood there for an instant (I'm sure it felt like an eternity) as they came to the realization of what just happened. The policeman took the gun away again, but this time he was shot in the process. He's OK and working today.

They have changed their practice routine. Now they toss the practice gun after they get it away.
 
...

His rationale is if you train your mind to stop and start over every time you make a mistake in practice that's exactly what you'll do in the field.


Thoughts?

There's certainly some validity to this concept.

I can't begin to remember all of the training or qual drills where someone encountered an unexpected occurrence, for whatever reason, and either paused or completely stopped. Not the optimal reaction for a real-world situation.

There was this one day when I was running a very experienced guy through a multiple threat/non-threat scenario which required movement.

The first armed threat target was right up in his face, requiring an off-hand blow to create time/space for the draw/presentation and a specified number of shots fired (following instructions under induced range stress). The target was free-standing (steel base).

His off-hand blow actually knocked the heavy target base over, briskly and hard enough so the threat target slammed onto the ground. Nobody else had hit it anywhere nearly as hard and caused that to happen. His reaction?

He rapidly fired the required number of shots into the downed threat's COM and instantly moved off to engage the remaining threat targets. In response to the quiet looks a couple of us (instructors) working that scenario gave him, as he was returning to the beginning position after he'd ID'd and engaged all the remaining threats, he quickly said that the armed threat he'd knocked over had still been holding and pointing a weapon toward him.

Training really can work, at times. :D

FWIW, it's when people start coming back after being involved in actual shooting incidents, telling you that the training had worked for them, that it starts to make it seem as though your efforts are having some practical effect.
 
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He has a point. However I am NOT a proponent of the Tap, Rack, Bang drill so popular today. Most failures to feed with a previously reliable semi automatic are related to a lack of energy produced by the ammunition. Think SQUIB and you can see where that Tap, Rack, Bang procedure can be a real problem. I can see no advantage in practicing a drill that can result in serious damage to a handgun when it's likely caused by the economy ammunition most practice with. A much wiser choice is to check your barrel for a squib before proceeding. Because a single squib is simply a bullet stuck in the barrel. Fire into that squib and you then have a bulged barrel that will likely result in the use of a heavy hammer to get the slide off the gun.

Yeah, I know. I'm not practicing that Tap, Rack, Bang drill and may need it someday. Not really likely, I have over 4000 rounds downrange with my carry pistol without one single failure. I also practice with handloads that are loaded to the exact same ballistics as my carry ammo, so I am as near 100% certain of my carry weapon as is statistically possible.
 
He has a point. However I am NOT a proponent of the Tap, Rack, Bang drill so popular today. Most failures to feed with a previously reliable semi automatic are related to a lack of energy produced by the ammunition. Think SQUIB and you can see where that Tap, Rack, Bang procedure can be a real problem. I can see no advantage in practicing a drill that can result in serious damage to a handgun when it's likely caused by the economy ammunition most practice with. A much wiser choice is to check your barrel for a squib before proceeding. Because a single squib is simply a bullet stuck in the barrel. Fire into that squib and you then have a bulged barrel that will likely result in the use of a heavy hammer to get the slide off the gun.

Yeah, I know. I'm not practicing that Tap, Rack, Bang drill and may need it someday. Not really likely, I have over 4000 rounds downrange with my carry pistol without one single failure. I also practice with handloads that are loaded to the exact same ballistics as my carry ammo, so I am as near 100% certain of my carry weapon as is statistically possible.

Most failures to feed or extract are caused by shooter error. The malfunctions caused by ammunition failure are not statistically significant. Also, the drill is Tap, Roll, Rack, and Assess . . . Automatically assuming that the threat is still present after you finish focusing on your malfunction drill is a huge tactical mistake.
 
In the mid-90s I was training at Shoot 'N Iron Academy in Oklahoma when I had a failure to extract - overpressure that bulged the case, jamming the slide.
I stopped and called it out to Paul Abel, owner/instructor.
He gave me a look that would warp steel and yelled, loudly, "BANG BANG BANG!!!"
Right. I slammed the slide against a wood rail, ejecting the shell, dropped the slide on a new round and continued.
In his typically pointed critique he noted that I hadn't even dropped to cover before "playing" with my gun!

Training is critical, correct training even MORE critical. Safety must never be compromised in training, but it shouldn't be addressed with bad habits.
 
I know some teach Tap Rack Assess, but the problem with that is that only does an immediate action malfunction drill in an emergency and the time period will be so short that the odds are overwhelming that the threat is still there.
 
scooter123 said:
He has a point. However I am NOT a proponent of the Tap, Rack, Bang drill so popular today. Most failures to feed with a previously reliable semi automatic are related to a lack of energy produced by the ammunition.
I disagree with this assessment. I've seen hundreds of malfunctions at training and at the range. None were caused by a squib load. There is an aspect of the squib you're leaving out; low recoil. A squib will have an obviously lower recoil and will not actuate the slide. This is not the case in a Type II or III malfunction. Those will have normal recoil, but no follow up shot.

Doug M. said:
I know some teach Tap Rack Assess, but the problem with that is that only does an immediate action malfunction drill in an emergency and the time period will be so short that the odds are overwhelming that the threat is still there.
OK, what should we teach?
 
Exactly correct...you will always fight as how you were trained.

Yes, at best. That's why I encourage IDPA matches for a little simulated pressure and the drive to get through it somehow without drawing a DQ. It's easy to be a legend in their own mind standing flatfooted at a firing line.
 
I disagree with this assessment. I've seen hundreds of malfunctions at training and at the range. None were caused by a squib load.

The most common malfunction that I experience on the range is when I'm doing an administrative reload on my 6906 and don't fully seat the magazine and the magazine disconnect engages (or disengages I'm not sure which).

Anyway it tends to be a really good training aid when it happens.
 
I have two scenarios for this, one from when I was in the academy, we were at an outdoor range shooting the shotguns and one of the students was shooting the multiple target scenario. She hit #1 and #2 just fine, but then the wind kicked up #3 so that it was up and facing away, 180* from where it was supposed to be. Thinking for less than a split second, she raised the 12ga and shot the target as it "hung" upside down ... she said the "suspect" had run up a flight of stairs pointing a gun at her.

The other one was me, We had to run down the range to the target, draw and fire two rounds. Of course with my clown feet, I tripped and ended up lying on my side. I just figured the heck with it, drew and fired twice ... hitting the COM both times. The range instructors then took it upon themselves to use my little incident as a teaching tool ... to never give up or look around to ask an instructor what you should do next, had that been a real scenario, there would have still been a bad guy standing there ready to take me out if I didn't respond as I had originally been supposed to (had I not fallen).
 
The most common malfunction that I experience on the range is when I'm doing an administrative reload on my 6906 and don't fully seat the magazine and the magazine disconnect engages (or disengages I'm not sure which).

Anyway it tends to be a really good training aid when it happens.

If it's happening with any regularity, it's not what I'd consider a 'training aid' if you're not learning from it, meaning you continue to fail to properly & fully seat the fresh magazine when the slide is forward. ;)

You might try giving a little tug on the butt plate's foot (since the 69XX has that curved butt plate) immediately upon inserting the mag.

Fully seating a full mag on a closed slide often takes more effort than when the slide is locked back, after all.

This is where some folks who do this manipulation while the pistol is holstered can encounter a problem, as some of them think they can just ease the mag in place, but then find it hasn't been done briskly and firmly enough for the mag catch to properly engage with the mag (resulting in a disconnected trigger/hammer). Giving the mag butt plate's foot a little tug has startled quite a few folks when they realized they hadn't properly inserted their fresh mag, which is better to catch and resolve at that point than trying to play catch-up during live-fire. :eek:
 
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This is where some folks who do this manipulation while the pistol is holstered can encounter a problem, as some of them think they can just ease the mag in place, but then find it hasn't been done briskly and firmly enough for the mag catch to properly engage with the mag (resulting in a disconnected trigger/hammer).

I actually only had this happen the first class and we figured out that this ^ was the cause that day

For safety sake no one is allowed to unholster while the instructor is in front of the class so I was just pulling the mag out of the gun, topping off and reseating (I thought) the magazine
 
This brings back to mind the story told by Bill Jordan in No Second Place Winner. It seems a certain border patrolman was used to saving his empty brass for reloading, and after a gunfight, someone noticed that his trouser pocket was bulging. He reached into his pocket and discovered he had saved his empties during the fight.

There are those who insist you will "rise to the occasion." Unfortunately, that is basically wishful thinking. Practice so that what you do is almost second nature, and that is what you will default to when called upon to react in an emergency.
 
I actually only had this happen the first class and we figured out that this ^ was the cause that day

For safety sake no one is allowed to unholster while the instructor is in front of the class so I was just pulling the mag out of the gun, topping off and reseating (I thought) the magazine

A brisk slap against the butt plate of the mag, followed by a confirming tug on the curved "foot", can become a handy unconsciously performed manipulation for such "admin topping off" when leaving a weapon holstered.

New mag springs can sometimes present a difference in "feeling", though, due to stronger tension. ;)
 
. However I am NOT a proponent of the Tap, Rack, Bang drill so popular today. Most failures to feed with a previously reliable semi automatic are related to a lack of energy produced by the ammunition. Think SQUIB and you can see where that Tap, Rack, Bang procedure can be a real problem. I can see no advantage in practicing a drill that can result in serious damage to a handgun when it's likely caused by the economy ammunition most practice with.

First, lets make it clear that the real world event we're talking about would take place with first quality duty/defensive ammo, not cut rate stuff you posit. The training event would be keyed by dummy rounds inserted at random, making weapon damage extremely unlikely.

So, when you experience a failure to feed, you're dropping your primary and going to your backup? I submit that taking the time to download and check your barrel may be your last acts on this earth in a real world event. This is admittedly dependent upon range and the availability of cover. At really close range, the best option may be to use the inoperative weapon as a club.

While Rastoff may have a point on noting the lack of recoil, I'm not sure that many will recognize this under the possible stress of a life/death encounter. Yeah, we may note the difference at the range, I'm just not sure you can count on it.
 
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While Rastoff may have a point on noting the lack of recoil, I'm not sure that many will recognize this under the possible stress of a life/death encounter. Yeah, we may note the difference at the range, I'm just not sure you can count on it.

I don't even notice recoil when I'm doing a drill
 
One of the things my instructor stresses is if you are going through a training drill and you bobble it do not stop and start over (assuming safety isn't compromised) but solve the problem and continue the drill.

His rationale is if you train your mind to stop and start over every time you make a mistake in practice that's exactly what you'll do in the field.


Thoughts?

Hince the origin of....

Improvise
Adapt
Overcome
 
This brings back to mind the story told by Bill Jordan in No Second Place Winner. It seems a certain border patrolman was used to saving his empty brass for reloading, and after a gunfight, someone noticed that his trouser pocket was bulging. He reached into his pocket and discovered he had saved his empties during the fight.

There are those who insist you will "rise to the occasion." Unfortunately, that is basically wishful thinking. Practice so that what you do is almost second nature, and that is what you will default to when called upon to react in an emergency.
That must have been some fancy hand work to catch brass in a gunfight.:eek:
 
That must have been some fancy hand work to catch brass in a gunfight.:eek:

I've heard different variations of this story but they on involve revolvers. Apparently the brass catch opened the cylinder and ejected the spent brass into his hand before pocketing it.
 
That must have been some fancy hand work to catch brass in a gunfight.:eek:
Revolver?

First, lets make it clear that the real world event we're talking about would take place with first quality duty/defensive ammo, not cut rate stuff you posit.
You're assuming that people aren't cheap. It's been my experience that many will use whatever is available in their carry gun. This often means the "cut rate" stuff.

While Rastoff may have a point on noting the lack of recoil, I'm not sure that many will recognize this under the possible stress of a life/death encounter. Yeah, we may note the difference at the range, I'm just not sure you can count on it.
You make a good point. I'll bet that under stress, even an experienced shooter, who has trained to shoot controlled pairs, will either shoot that second shot or do the tap-rack-assess and then shoot if necessary, without noticing the squib.

Yes indeed, the squib is the bane of the shooting world. It is dangerous and has blown up it's share of guns. I would hope that a person would notice the lack of recoil even though there is a small bang. Even so, under stress they may not.
 
Speaking Of Training Scars

I was taking out the trash this morning and some woman stepped out from behind the dumpster just as I got there (she was picking up cans I think). Anyway she startled me enough that I reflectively reached towards my gun and then realized that even though I normally carry on my right hip (where I was reaching) today my gun was in my left rear pocket.

Whoops.

Side note: the woman asked why I was looking in the dumpster and I told her I always look because you never know (I found an ATM in the dumpster once) and I'm positive that it's only a matter of time before I find a body. She got pissed that I would say that and said I ruined her vibes or something.
 
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