Transfer of ownership

[Der Biermeister]

A friend of mine, who lives in my home state of Virginia, has a nice Glock for sale.

My brother, who lives in Miss, is in the market for this type of gun -- and being as I think this would be a good deal, I am going to try to convince him to buy it. However, the seller doesn't want to go through the paperwork hassle of having to send to a dealer in Miss, etc., so he suggests he sells the gun to me, and then I can sell it to my brother.

I have not looked at the transfer of ownership rules in a long time. If my brother visits me here in Virginia, can I just transfer the gun to him, with Bill of sale, to avoid the 3rd party dealer in Miss?

 

[redwood0_7]

There is really no paper work your friend will have to do. Your brother needs to send a signed copy of his dealers FFL to your friend. Your friend then ships firearm to brother's dealer. The dealer then does the paper work for your brother to buy the weapon which involves background check. If you buy the gun for your brother that is called a straw buy which is illegal. I had a FFL for many years in Ohio but no longer have it. These are the rules as I know them unless something has changed and I don't think they have.

 

[Der Biermeister]

There is really no paper work your friend will have to do. Your brother needs to send a signed copy of his dealers FFL to your friend. Your friend then ships firearm to brother's dealer. The dealer then does the paper work for your brother to buy the weapon which involves background check. If you buy the gun for your brother that is called a straw buy which is illegal. I had a FFL for many years in Ohio but no longer have it. These are the rules as I know them unless something has changed and I don't think they have.

Thanks for your response
Wouldn't my transaction, all done here in Virginia be similar to the so-called "gun show" loop-hole, wherein a background check is not required?

 

[Fishinfool]

Thanks for your response
Wouldn't my transaction, all done here in Virginia be similar to the so-called "gun show" loop-hole, wherein a background check is not required?

Your brother, being a resident of MS, I believe it would still be illegal for you to just give him the gun while he is visiting.

What I would do - Buy the gun from the seller as my own. Shoot it once. Hmmm, don't like it like I thought I would, sell it to my brother via shipping to an FFL dealer in his state. Straw purchases and the laws against them were intended, in my opinion, to prevent the purchase of guns by one party with the express purpose of turning them over to another party who can not otherwise obtain a firearm legally. Would not be the case if you transferred it to him properly thru an FFL. Just my opinion though...

 

[pawncop]

I would recommend extreme caution for a transaction like this. I'm not saying you are doing anything illegal but perception can be a real pain, especially when crossing state lines in our present environment.

Federal agencies do not play and are not known for their sense of humor when it comes to "straw" purchases.

Decide if you wish to run the risk of having to prove your intent. That is painful and expensive.

 

[arjay]

Buy it,then sell it to your brother through an ffl.You have nothing to gain,but could be setting yourself up for a headache the other way.

 

[g8rb8]

My understanding of the laws are when a handgun goes across state lines it must go through a FFL in the state where the handgun eventually ends up. In this case the seller would need to ship to a FFL holder in Mississippi and then that FFL holder could legally transfer the handgun to your brother. He'll need to prearrange with a receiving FFL holder in Mississippi to accept the Glock and he'll have shipping fees and transfer fees too. What you need to do to stay legal is almost too much trouble for something as common as a Glock unless the seller is letting it go super cheap. Personally I would feel uncomfortable buying it with the intention of sending it across state lines to another person. Even if you would decide to buy the Glock and give it to your brother as a gift, since it would end up across state lines, you would have to ship it to and transfer it through a FFL holder in Mississippi.

 

[Der Biermeister]

I think you are saying that if I buy the gun from my friend, and then turn around and sent it to a FFL in Miss and my brother gets his background check -- that I still could be in trouble because of the reason I bought the gun in the first place?

Not sure I want that hassle.

The gun is a pretty good deal. A Glock 17, several years old but in like-new condition and fired very little. Has TruGlo tritium sights, and a Crimson Trace laser. The owner is also going to throw in 3 extra full size mags. $600
But with this extra hassle, the price doesn't look that attractive.

Questions:

What does it cost to ship a gun? Do you need special insurance, etc.?

Also, what would be a reasonable fee that an FFL would charge to receive, do the background checks, and transfer the gun to my brother?

 

[usm1rifle]

Good Lord, it is a GLOCK!!

Your brother can get one dirt cheap in his home state. Check Police supply stores, used G22s around here are as low as $325.

 

[Der Biermeister]

That's somewhat true ---- but the same thing can be said for most any gun. Why then do people go through the effort of shipping and FFL on the receiving end?

 

[Dennis The B]

It is absolutely illegal for anyone to sell a handgun to party in another state without using FFL's to transfer the gun.

I believe, that in Virginia, there are no gymnastics to go through when selling a handgun to another individual, provided both parties can legally own a handgun.

However, as soon as someone in another state is involved, no matter who it is, then the transaction falls under the auspices of the ATF, and FFL's must be used at both ends.

The last thing you want to do is commit a felony under Federal law.

 

[Der Biermeister]

It is absolutely illegal for anyone to sell a handgun to party in another state without using FFL's to transfer the gun.

I believe, that in Virginia, there are no gymnastics to go through when selling a handgun to another individual, provided both parties can legally own a handgun.

However, as soon as someone in another state is involved, no matter who it is, then the transaction falls under the auspices of the ATF, and FFL's must be used at both ends.

The last thing you want to do is commit a felony under Federal law.

Thanks - didn't know about the FFLs at both ends.

 

[donadler]

That's somewhat true ---- but the same thing can be said for most any gun. Why then do people go through the effort of shipping and FFL on the receiving end?

For the most part, as stated earlier, for common guns like Glocks no one bothers buying from out of state and doing the FFL bit.

But let's say I want a Smith that will complete my collection of left handed guns with right handed threads that were made on a Tuesday ....and I found one of only 3042 made in another state. The FFL fee is going to be worth it!

 

[Der Biermeister]

After all this discussion, I now understand why my friend has opted out of selling directly to my brother and wants me to be the intermediary to pick up the hassle.

Not going to happen. My brother is just going to have to find his own deal down in ole Missasip.

As for me, I have no use for the Glock 17 as my M&P9 FS is a better weapon.

 

[OKFC05]

Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient's State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at Home | ATF and Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons | ATF. The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. For example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under a will or by State law upon death of the owner. See 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(5)(A).

 

[LVSteve]

It is absolutely illegal for anyone to sell a handgun to party in another state without using FFL's to transfer the gun.

I believe, that in Virginia, there are no gymnastics to go through when selling a handgun to another individual, provided both parties can legally own a handgun.

However, as soon as someone in another state is involved, no matter who it is, then the transaction falls under the auspices of the ATF, and FFL's must be used at both ends.

The last thing you want to do is commit a felony under Federal law.

Sorry, but that does not apply in my state or in many others AFAIK. I can send a handgun to an FFL in another state as a private person, it's just damned expensive ($70-80) as it must go next day air.

 

[Dennis The B]

Sorry, but that does not apply in my state or in many others AFAIK. I can send a handgun to an FFL in another state as a private person, it's just damned expensive ($70-80) as it must go next day air.

You're correct.

Not to put too fine a point on things, though, I'm aware of at least a dozen FFL's here in the Detroit area, who absolutely will not accept any gun from anyone other than another FFL. To a person, they've all expressed the potential problems with no ability to track the gun back to a licensed dealer.