Trap & Skeet question.

[calmex]

This is potentially the wrong place to post my question, but I think it's okay here in the lounge.

Our new gunrange between San Miguel de Allende and Dolores Hidalgo is in the final phases of being approved. We've already got the backstop and fenced are up, and once it's approved construction will start on the firing bays. We are principally a handgun club (P.P.C., I.P.S.C., Pin, Plate, and probably some iron-chicken as well) but we will have a 200 yard rifle range that potentially could become longer in the future.

Also, we want to have a shotgun skeet and trap range. Here is my question: can the Skeet range and Trap range be "combined" into the same range? Or not? I have about 130 yards to work with and the dividing walls will be cinderblock. However, I see we need to dedicate about 50 yards of our 130 to the Skeet range. I really don't want to take up more of our area unless I have to.

I do actually have independent funding for the trap and skeet range as there is enough interest in it around here (and Shotguns are easier to get in Mexico, let's not forget that either) that some of the rich have offered to invest in the building of it to get it done now and the Club pays them back over time. Since the range is in our name, and the whole facility is approved under our "Permanent Board of Directors" there is simply no chance of someone making a power-grab just because they "invested" in the range. So that's not a concern.

I'd just like to know: can the Skeet and Trap facility be combined? Or is that just a "no-no" all the way around? (I fear, if it cannot be combined, the Trap will have to be installed further back behind the other ranges and when people want to shoot Trap the rest of the range will have to be closed. This is something we can do by simply insisting of a strict schedule to use the Trap range but it would work a lot better if we could lump the two together.)

Just to be clear: we are principally a handgun club. We're willing to throw a bone to the Trap and Skeet shooters but there's no way the bulk of the founding members or the Board of Directors will give out half of our available range backstop to the shotgun shooters. I suppose another "possibility" is that the Trap range and the NRA Moving Target Range could double-up.

Anyway, I'd like some opinions from people who know more about it than I do. Thanks.

 

[Autococker07]

Yes you can.... would you like me to mail you a blueprint? The club I manage just went operational on our first trap range this weekend, and I think I have leftovers

Superimposing the trap and skeet field is a good idea for a limited install, like your pistol club proposes.... you can let the shotgun guys fight over sharing it LOL.... I don't know about sharing it with the mover range, however, because your trap field will have marked set up 50 yards out in the middle, left and right edges of the flightpath.... those may interfere with the movers unless you get really creative.

Here is a low detail idea of what the superimposed field looks like.

Good luck, feel free to PM me if you need any other info, or want those blueprints!

Jim

 

[gjamison]

Yes you can combine a trap and skeet field. Here in upstate NY we have several that are built that way.

Just make sure they are built to NSSA and ATA specifications.

 

[da gimp]

thank you autoc for helping another club get off the ground.... that's what makes our sport great............Ya got class hand.

 

[calmex]

Yes you can.... would you like me to mail you a blueprint? The club I manage just went operational on our first trap range this weekend, and I think I have leftovers

Yes, please. We sure could use the plan. My store is a good place to mail to and I don't mind publishing the address.

Cal Nordman c/o
Helados Santa Clara
Ancha de San Antonio #3
Colonia Centro
San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato
Mexico 37700

That'll get it here! I'll sure look forward to it and it is a BIG relief that we don't need to give up any more space than necessary to move forwards here!

Thanks so much!
Cheers!
Cal

 

[johngalt]

It could be entertaining to combine the trap and skeet fields. At every club I've been a member, they don't get along. I never understood why.

 

[calmex]

It could be entertaining to combine the trap and skeet fields. At every club I've been a member, they don't get along. I never understood why.

Oh, I guarantee you they won't want to get along here either and will start with the "we're investing good money blah, blah, blah..." which will go over with our Board of Directors like a lead balloon.

Me and four friends bought a property out in the high desert that belonged to a community farm. My wife's family (Professional Mexican Politicians all) arranged for our small group to get the Title Deed from the Government. Then we built the range (at our cost) and started the process the get the Mexican Army and Government (Federal and State), the Mexican Police (Federal, State and Municipal) and the Health Department (Municipal and State) and the Ecology Department (Municipal and State) to authorize it. We are in the final stages of this process now. Close enough to start planning the bays and layout.

Anybody coming in at this stage with an arrogant "I've invested some money..." attitude is going to find that our attitude is that it is -- after all -- mere money. If you want to shoot, we will have the facility. If you don't like the way we're doing it, go get your own range approved. And good luck on that.

When I was in Canada, our Club had to move ranges twice and I was there to see the song-and-dance process. Setting up an entirely new club and range here in Central Mexico has been an eye-opener -- not just in the number of songs and dances we were required to perform but in the number of people (some of them serving Mexican Army Officers) who openly or in secret came forward to tell us "you need to present this form filled out in this way or it will be refused..." and so on.

It has been an unique experience that I hope moves on to the next stage very soon. Being able to combine Skeet and Trap will allow us sufficient room for our pistol ranges. That's all I care about. The Mexican Shotgunner crowd holds itself so aloof from the rest of us, I doubt they'll stoop to voice their complaints to us "commoners" anyway.

But they will get their range it appears, albeit combined. I thank you all for your input. It's what I like about this Forum, one can find out the answer to complicated concerns quickly from people who actually "know" instead of just "think". Wow, you can't beat that.

 

[walkinghorse]

Trap and Skeet Standards

With reference to ATA and NSSA standards, as this range is in Mexico, are these the applicable standards? I have read about International and Olympic standards. I do not know if any difference exists, beyond having read somewhere that International and Olympic bird speeds are faster than ATA and NSSA standards. Faster speeds could mean further throw distances, and maybe different course size requirements.
American saying...5# in a 2# sack seems possible?

 

[jrm53]

This is a joke that I heard 40 years ago about how you could tell a skeet shooter from a trap shooter after a match or shoot. The skeet shooters will be having a drink and the trap shooters will be trading guns. It kinda of made sense to me back them. Jeff

 

[tops]

There are many clubs that combine trap and skeet in one field. I assume the 130 yds. you are talking is the width. I believe the shot fall distance is 300 yds. Larry

 

[H Richard]

Yes you can. The range I shoot at is combined. The trap house is centered in the distance between the High and low skeet houses, and only is about 3 ft above ground. On league days, the fields are designated either Trap or Skeet. On practice days, we set up half for trap and half for skeet. We all get along. Trap is more prevalent in the summer months, and skeet in the fall and winter months.

 

[Big Stick]

Yes you can combine them, and in addition, you can shoot something called 5 Stand on the combined field, with a few adds. Kind of like sporting clays with a twist....

 

[Karnivore]

At my club the skeet and trap are nearly all dual use. This spawned a new game called "Treet". You shoot trap targets from the skeet positions. You start at station one and shoot till you hit the clay. When you do, you move to the next station. The first shooter to go to seven and back to one is the winner.

Fun game, but very tough for beginners. This really brought the skeet and trap guys on the same page.

We have just opened a professional class Sporting Clays course. Everybody is enjoying this new venue. If you are in the Jacksonville, Fl area, come see us at the Jacksonville Gun Club

 

[M29since14]

On "overlay" fields it seems common to have the trap shooters come on Sat. and the skeet shooters on Sun., alternating days from year to year, or something like that. When the field is not busy and has been so for a good while, usually in the afternoons, then it reverts to "shooters' choice." I've never seen that be a serious problem, although there will always be "grumblers." As a skeet shooter I always found the gumbling most common in the trap-shooting contingent. (just kidding )

At one club I used to visit, they sometimes shot a game they called "scrap," which was singles thrown from the trap machine, fired from the skeet stations, with a puller's delay as in international skeet. Most shot it with a trap gun, but you could use any gun you chose, for that matter. It was kind of a fun game and one I don't recall seeing anyone clean a round, but I suppose it happened now and then. I did see 23s and 24s. It was especially challenging at night.

Good luck with your shotgun field. Every gun club should have at least an overlay field and regular times for the shotgunners.

 

[calmex]

There are many clubs that combine trap and skeet in one field. I assume the 130 yds. you are talking is the width. I believe the shot fall distance is 300 yds. Larry

Larry:
Did you ever see the Star Trek episode "City on the Edge of Forever?" Where Spock says "These ruins extend to the horizon."?

Well, the uninhabited space BEHIND our backstop extends to the horizon. It is scrub desert, going back miles and miles. I stood on the backstop only a month ago as the sun went down with some friends. Not a light, not a candle, not even a firefly made a glow going all the way back to the mountains in the distance. And it's "Ejido land", like communal farm. You can't buy there. You can't get a title deed if you do. (We did it because my wife's nephew was in charge of Ejido land regularization at the exact time we bought the property. But for someone else to try it? Good luck with that.)

So we're good there. It's out in the scrub High Desert near where the movie "Pancho Villa" with Antonio Banderas was filmed. I have no recent photos of the place, and only a few old ones at that. This one, of the main entrance before the fence and main gate went up. Yes, it is called "Club I.P.S.C." . I was a Cooper-era Section Director. I'll take the heat. You can see some of the backstop already pushed up in the background.



Cooper's four safety rules -- in Spanish, of course. We are in Mexico. Angry as I sometimes get with Mexico, I have to admit that when the Mexicans actually give you what you want you gotta love 'em.



My wife, same day. Dressed in her Gemma outfit.

 

[Cooter Brown]

At my club the skeet and trap are nearly all dual use. This spawned a new game called "Treet". You shoot trap targets from the skeet positions. You start at station one and shoot till you hit the clay. When you do, you move to the next station. The first shooter to go to seven and back to one is the winner.

That's a hell of a fun and challenging game, especially with a wobble trap! Around here I've heard it referred to as "skrap". Whatever you call it, it's fun and can be humbling.

Calmex, good luck with the range!

 

[Autococker07]

Yes, please. We sure could use the plan. My store is a good place to mail to and I don't mind publishing the address.

Cal Nordman c/o
Helados Santa Clara
Ancha de San Antonio #3
Colonia Centro
San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato
Mexico 37700

That'll get it here! I'll sure look forward to it and it is a BIG relief that we don't need to give up any more space than necessary to move forwards here!

Thanks so much!
Cheers!
Cal

I picked up the -last- copy we had in the office tonight on my way by the range, and am including a couple of notebook sized sheets to copy and distribute.... these prints aren't perfect, but there what the NSSA provided us, and our local contractors were able to use them (although they still screwed up, long story).

Please let me know if I can help in any other way, I am far from an expert on clay target shooting, but have access to some truly amazing shooters here, and would love to do anything I can to help.

I'll PM with a tracking number tomorrow.

I absolutely loved the post about Col Roettinger, and am so happy that all the pieces worked out to get his prized magnum to you. That revolver is a fantastic piece of American history, owned by a Canadian, in Mexico! Too Cool!!!! I think I can speak for all of us here that we would love to hear more about your times with Col Roettinger, Col Cooper, and I am sure many others that you have not told us about! What a life Sir!!!

Jim

 

[Autococker07]

With reference to ATA and NSSA standards, as this range is in Mexico, are these the applicable standards? I have read about International and Olympic standards. I do not know if any difference exists, beyond having read somewhere that International and Olympic bird speeds are faster than ATA and NSSA standards. Faster speeds could mean further throw distances, and maybe different course size requirements.
American saying...5# in a 2# sack seems possible?

For Skeet, international uses the same field.... not sure for trap, I think "international" trap may be "bunker" trap, which is a much more expensive proposition.

In skeet, we can program our machines to introduce the international delay (0-3sec random delay after button push), and we can crank up the speed on the machines (about 10 mph faster). In addition, International shooters must have the gun dismounted, and can mount only after the bird flys.... it is a MUCH tougher game than "american" Skeet.

 

[Big Stick]

I was a NSSA certified referee a few decades back.... The majority of league shooters, and many of the Registered Event contestants would have a meltdown if they would have to shoot International.... But, personally, I feel that if you can shoot Int'l, with a pump shotgun, it does several things for your shotgunning skills as a whole, regardless of what you are shooting at.....

 

[calmex]

I picked up the -last- copy we had in the office tonight on my way by the range, and am including a couple of notebook sized sheets to copy and distribute.... these prints aren't perfect, but there what the NSSA provided us, and our local contractors were able to use them (although they still screwed up, long story).

Please let me know if I can help in any other way, I am far from an expert on clay target shooting, but have access to some truly amazing shooters here, and would love to do anything I can to help.

I'll PM with a tracking number tomorrow.

I absolutely loved the post about Col Roettinger, and am so happy that all the pieces worked out to get his prized magnum to you. That revolver is a fantastic piece of American history, owned by a Canadian, in Mexico! Too Cool!!!! I think I can speak for all of us here that we would love to hear more about your times with Col Roettinger, Col Cooper, and I am sure many others that you have not told us about! What a life Sir!!!

Jim

Thank you so much! I will keep you informed as to how things are going but the Club Board is most excited that we can give the shotgunners a "combined" range and not give up any more of our precious backstop area than we need to. Although I hope against hope that we'll be up and running soon I have been in Mexico long enough to know that the best plan is to just keep your head down and plough forwards like the peasants do and then you'll get there when you get there. Hope can be frustrating when things don't work out as fast as you want them to so it's best not to hope too much.

I knew Phil Roettinger and Phil Maher quite well. I was humbled to the point of almost sniffling aloud just a few weeks ago when -- presented to the former Canadian Ambassador to Mexico at a cocktail party in a local hotel -- I was told by the man that "Ah, yes, Phil Maher had told me he had a young Canadian friend he shot with and that would be you." To know that Phil Maher had described me as "his friend" -- which I was and I knew that -- almost made me tear up. Maher was a classic tough guy, and he would never have told me himself of course. Roettinger and I were clearly friends and he made no bones about it.

I never knew Cooper in the classic sense of having been formally presented. I was in a room once while Cooper and Ray Chapman chatted in front of me (Cooper nodded at me as I stood leaning against the wall, motionless) and I walked by him on a range as he passed me talking to some other people I knew but I could not screw up the courage to barge in and present myself.

I did receive a rather large amount of correspondence from him while I was an IPSC Director in Manitoba in 1980, '81 and early '82. I quit when Cooper quit and was replaced by Jean-Pierre Denis, if I recall correctly. The monthly packages from Gunsite full of photocopied material, gestetner sheets and some with handwritten notes upon them saying things like "Interesting, this.." stopped arriving.

I have found out later that not every Section Coordinator was so blessed and think that perhaps Canadian IPSC Director (at the time) Murray Gardner probably had spoken up for me on my behalf to Cooper and thus placed me in the aura of Cooper's sunbeam. Gardner worked directly with Cooper on the first rule book and often would call me up and give me direct "Jeff quotes" to some of my questions at the time.

Eg.
Me: "Why can't we just make Major Caliber a 180 power factor? That eliminates the .38 Super which seems to be what you guys want."

Murray: "Yes, I asked Jeff that and he says that would eliminate the Commander and the Star and the Detonics. So that's a no-go."

The power factor for Major Caliber was established at 175 at the time and later dropped to 170 in the World Rules. But I remember the conversation.

So I never knew Cooper personally and never met him formally -- although we did correspond quite a bit in terms of him sending me copies of articles and stuff that were on his mind at the time. I wish I had met him but I treasure the fact that he took the time to send me stuff -- and sometimes -- note a particular page or article he thought was interesting. I still wonder "why me?" but I suspect Murray Gardner's hand in this. It's the only explanation I have. I asked Murray about it the last time I saw him when he came down with his wife to Puerto Vallharta for a visit, but he just laughed and said "In time, all will become clear to you, Grasshopper," and left the mystery open.