Travel in NJ and MD

Most of this paranoia is unfounded. FOPA does protect you from travelling from one good state to another. I don't understand where all of these fears come from that seem to indicate that both MD and NJ will have a major roadblock just to stop and dismantle your car looking for a spent .22 casing so you can spend life in Rahway prison.

Just to make it clear FOPA does NOT protect you from being arrested on the street. A Judge MAY allow your defense lawyer to use it during your trial after you have been arrested and charged with firearms violation.

"all of these fears come from" real life cases that other members have posted on this thread.

Ignoring State Laws is extremely foolish.
 
Planning a trip to PA , traveling through MD with a stop in NJ to meet friends for dinner along the way. After carrying for a year, not sure if I should even have my Shield unloaded and locked up while traveling in these states. Unsure as how to legally travel in these "gun unfriendly states."
I do have a non-resident PA permit so I'm comfortable in PA and all other states I will be in. Do I need to leave my Shield in SC for this trip? Not comfortable on a road trip unarmed.

And apparently, do not take a knife in lieu of a firearm for self-defense in New Jersey: Section 2C:39-3 of the New Jersey Criminal Code makes it illegal to carry "any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto . . . without any explainable lawful purpose." Furthermore, you are forbidden from possessing any other weapon "not manifestly appropriate for lawful use."
 
The stop in NJ is the problem. FOPA may not protect you since you cannot posses there. End your trip in PA, have your friends meet you there. Happy to recommend Philly places to eat....I'm sure someone will try to make Philly out to me as bad as NJ, but it ain't true.
 
Some pointers from the real world viewpoint of a prosecutor who writes and teaches search and seizure. Most of these apply to all driving and LE contacts, but with more emphasis here.

1) Unless you simply cannot avoid it, stay out of MD and NJ.

2) If, as some here do, you value entering those states enough for other reasons, then make yourself as low profile as possible. How, you ask? Here:
a) Nothing visible in or on your vehicle that associates you with firearms. No decals, firearm type cases, etc. Period. No firearm T shirts, you name it.

b) Don't drive stupidly. Keep your speed just above the speed limit, using cruise control (3-5 MPH, no more than 5). Use your turn signal religiously - you should anyway. Don't tailgate.

c) Do everything you can to avoid stopping in those states. Gas? Ok. Food? Preferably not. Booze? Pay someone to slap you repeatedly. Overnight? You're a dolt. Does your guardian know you escaped from the home?

d) Before entering those states, at some discreet location in a state where you are legal to carry, disarm. Put everything that even arguably indicates carrying, owning, or liking firearms in a locked container within another locked (nondescript, like a suitcase) container in your trunk. No trunk because you have a pickup? Hell to the no. I like 'em, too, but the property security issue is too important to compromise under any circumstance, even outside of these dumb places. Carefully check every place in the passenger compartment and your body that might ever have gun stuff in it; my car would have some that needed to be addressed. The number of idiots who try to board planes with guns, ammo, or knives that they have forgotten is incredible.

e) Make darned sure that everything you might need if stopped (car reg., proof of insurance) is organized, and readily available. If you have anything beside those, your owner's manual, and any maintenance log in your glove compartment, you are probably making unwise choices. It is really frustrating to a cop, and indicative of needing more scrutiny, to have a lot of disorganized crud in there. (Some offenders use that stuff as a distractor.) If the cop is dumb enough to approach on the driver side, it is also unsafe, as it increases the exposure to traffic.

f) If you smoke, make darned sure you put it out as soon as you have signaled the stop (uh, you do at least turn on your 4 ways and pull over ASAP, don't you?). Lit smoking materials are used as a distractor by offenders, for both concealment of obvious odors of intoxication or drugs in the car, and for assaults. Any cop worth a darn will tell you to put it out with a quickness anyway. Failure to do so is likely a crime, such as under our obstructing statute here in WA.*

g) Related to that: don't move around in your car, don't reach for anything, just keep your hands visible on the wheel and sit still until directed to do something like get your DL/reg./insurance. Make darned sure that the manner in which you carry your DL is NEVER consistent with a drawing motion. DO NOT do anything that looks like opening the door, getting out, etc. If your windows don't roll down, un(screw) yourself and get that fixed. Yesterday. I have kicked doors shut on people who started to open them if I am that close; yelled at people who start to get out, backed up hard enough to smoke tires. That is a significant pre-assaultive cue. (I know some were taught that 50 years ago. It was dumb then, and a lot dumber now. Don't do that.)

h) No matter how frustrated you get, refer to the cop or trooper by some form of polite address consistent with your normal speech. Sir, Ma'am, Officer, Deputy, Trooper. I don't care. Using the 12 letter word for "Adherent of Oedipus" may be gratifying and is certainly protected speech, no matter what the weak say, but it is dumb. Use that later, when you complain.

i) Never volunteer anything you don't need to. NEVER consent to a search. Period. If you consent to a search, I will disown you. You are a fool. If they ask why, you don't want your carefully packed property disturbed, you have a schedule to keep, etc. Make them get a warrant or rely on a clear exception - the exceptions applicable to vehicles still require probable cause. If they go full stupid and you don't think they have PC, remember to SHUT UP. Don't resist. Deal with it in court using a suppression motion.

* The law, in short: A vehicle stop for traffic enforcement (I dislike the term traffic stop; it's sloppy) is still a Terry stop. Probable cause is not the standard; reasonable suspicion is. Almost certainly PC can be satisfied with most traffic violations, but it is not needed. You do not get to pick the stop location. Period.

Anything other than pulling over as quickly as safely possible is both unlawful and consistent with being a violent offender. (If for any reason, you don't think it is a real LE officer, you need to call 911 with all possible alacrity. Anything other than doing so will not be consistent with such a concern. I hate unmarked cars because it facilitates such claims, right or wrong.) Under the SCOTUS caselaw, in any non-consensual contact (which includes this setting), the officer is in charge, and gets to control it. Yes, that means they can tell you to put out the cigarette, keep your hands in sight, stay in the car (or get out), etc. They may phrase it nicely the first time, but it is still an order, and it is a lawful order. Any perceptible delay will likely violate a statute similar to the WA law on obstructing ("A person is guilty of obstructing a law enforcement officer if the person willfully hinders, delays, or obstructs any law enforcement officer in the discharge of his or her official powers or duties"). Understand that the training will or should be "ask, tell, make", and that the progression in these steps will be rapid; a few seconds from the start to arrest.

If you do not like the experience, comply, then complain. You do not get to resist. Period. It will go very badly for you. The cop will prevail in the street, even if it takes 4 of them, which virtually guarantees you will be injured. Understand that cops look at the world through a different lens. They do in fact have experiences and encounter people who are bad in ways that most citizens, and certainly most fundamentally decent people, cannot understand. Look at the recent murder of a cop (Lt. Aaron Allan, Southport Indiana) who responded to a car crash and was just flat our murdered for no reason anyone has yet been able to discern. (Go find the Dinkheller case videos and the recent CNN report on his murder, for example.) I prosecuted a kid from another county a couple times for felony property crimes against a friend of his mother; at 15, he murdered that man, and we saw no indication of that, although the prior crimes obviously looked personal. Age, sex, and lots of other variables don't matter - acts do.

My signature here is a message. I live by it. If you don't know what it means, you are probably among the decent folks who don't have the perceptions and experiences.
 
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Heard N.J. was even worse than Ma. and that is BAD. I understand Ma. became a "May Issue" state even for long guns back around 2014. Surprised Maryland got so bad in restrictions but N.J. sounds like a horror show!
 
Heard N.J. was even worse than Ma. and that is BAD. I understand Ma. became a "May Issue" state even for long guns back around 2014. Surprised Maryland got so bad in restrictions but N.J. sounds like a horror show!
NJ is MAY ISSUE as well but good luck getting one. There are, last I heard, something like several thousand issued carry permits in NJ. None of them are regular citizens

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NJ is MAY ISSUE as well but good luck getting one. There are, last I heard, something like several thousand issued carry permits in NJ. None of them are regular citizens

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No surprise Arik. Wonder if it pertains to rifle and shotguns too. Hope residents enjoy shooting pellet guns!
 
I really appreciate all of the input. SOunds ever worse than we thought it was. Will take the trip with my guns locked up safely in SC.
 
May I add my two cents? I have gleened the following from the US Law Shield seminars that I have gone to, and conducted by Evan Nappen, the pre-eminent gun law attorney in the state, and the lead attorney that you get if you need a US Law Shield attorney in NJ!

1. Never travel in NJ with loaded magazines.
2. Never travel with anything remotely in view that is gun related that could give a cop probable cause for a search.
3. Any firearm charge is a felony, with a mandated minimum of 2.5 years in prison before parole/probation eligibility.
4. Any accessory charge (a mere hollow point bullet) is a felony, with a minimum mandated prison sentence of 1.5 years, before parole/probation eligibility.
5. Traveling through the state is generally not a problem if you don't get stopped.
6. If you enter the state, then exit the state without going to a match, gun shop, etc, you are in a very dangerous gray area. If I am returning from a match or gun shop, I could probably get away with a bathroom stop, but running erands with a properly secured firearm in your car can put you in jeopardy.

As far as I am concerned, there are NO good reasons for ANY freedom-loving, sane person to live, work, or visit, or drive through a place like NJ.

NO EXCEPTIONS.
 
MA is a VERY undesirable state to visit. For residence, it's not as bad, although surely in the bottom quintile. If you already have all the handguns you want, or want only those that make C&R, it's not bad. There are many areas where a carry permit is not much trouble, and usually very few restrictions on where you can carry.

As noted, CT is straightforward and reasonable about what's needed for a non-resident permit.

Why do YOU live there?
 
As far as I am concerned, there are NO good reasons for ANY freedom-loving, sane person to live, work, or visit, or drive through a place like NJ.

NO EXCEPTIONS.
Plenty of exceptions. It called life!

As I listed earlier....I can spend an hour to drive to NJ, and back, for a part for work OR I can wait 4 days to have the same part delivered. In the meantime no work and no work for some of my employees! That is not an option. The machines cost a lot of money and down time costs more money than to spend an hour driving. Imagine S&W telling you that you have to wait an extra week because the no one can drive to the neighboring state to pick up a small part for the machine needed to fix your gun.


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Traveling in NJ means just that. Passing through. NO STOPPING, no overnight, no bathroom, no food. So if you stop to visit friends or take a leak you're now braking the law. Plenty of people have been arrested for it.

No you're not. FOPA requires a direct route, but a direct route does allow for stopping for gas bathroom breaks and meals along that direct route - or just off it, such as exiting the interstate to eat at a restaurant just off the interstate. Now in a dinky little state like NJ, you normally would not stop over night, but given that you might have to drive from VA to VT or ME, with no real friendly firearms state sin between, you may have to stop somewhere, especially with NE corridor traffic being what it usually is. That's also allowed under the pass through provisions of the FOPA.

I agree, if you decide to go visit a relative, tour a museum, etc, that would not meet the requirement so the pass through provisions of FOPA.

I do however agree with you that an over zealous and under educated officer may not be aware of FOPA's pass through provision, but one would hope an officer would still have probable cause to make a stop in NJ. Even if a stop occurs, a firearm is found, and FOPA is ignored, you'll get hauled downtown but a call to your lawyer will get it sorted out pretty quickly unless you did something stupid - and actually illegal - like resist arrest.

NJ law can be what ever NJ wants it to be and can inflict it on their own residents, but federal law is in fact preeminent.

Just be prudent, follow the letter of the pass through provisions to a tee, and take care not to do anything that would be probable cause for a stop, and if stopped don't do anything that would become probable cause for a vehicle search.
 
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No you're not. FOPA requires a direct route, but a direct route does allow for stopping for gas bathroom breaks and meals along that direct route - or just off it, such as exiting the interstate to eat at a restaurant just off the interstate. Now in a dinky little state like NJ, you normally would not stop over night, but given that you might have to drive from VA to VT or ME, with no real friendly firearms state sin between, you may have to stop somewhere, especially with NE corridor traffic being what it usually is. That's also allowed under the pass through provisions of the FOPA.

I agree, if you decide to go visit a relative, tour a museum, etc, that would not meet the requirement so the pass through provisions of FOPA.

I do however agree with you that an over zealous and under educated officer may not be aware of FOPA's pass through provision, but one would hope an officer would still have probable cause to make a stop in NJ. Even if a stop occurs, a firearm is found, and FOPA is ignored, you'll get hauled downtown but a call to your lawyer will get it sorted out pretty quickly unless you did something stupid - and actually illegal - like resist arrest.

NJ law can be what ever NJ wants it to be and can inflict it on their own residents, but federal law is in fact preeminent.

Just be prudent, follow the letter of the pass through provisions to a tee, and take care not to do anything that would be probable cause for a stop, and if stopped don't do anything that would become probable cause for a vehicle search.
You're probably right and I'm not arguing with you but I've heard plenty of NJ residents say DON'T STOP. A lot of them don't even stop between the range and home.

FOPA doesn't mean anything. They'll still arrest. In court you can use the FOPA
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NJ is very sketchy. Having been in Law Enforcement in NJ I can say not all cops are out for blood. However, you don't know the mind set of the LEO you may encounter just like he or she doesn't know your mind set. Remember, do not give consent to search and don't volunteer any information.
 
I live in Pa. but when I travel to Florida, I'm legal thru every
state I go thru except SC. I think they want the firearms and
ammo locked where it can't be reached. What a PITA.
Denny
 
Unless you stole money from a drug cartel or cheated the mafia and have a bulls-eye on your back, your best solution would be to just leave your firearm at home and not worry about it. I really don't think you'd be in a lot of danger without it.
 
You have never been through Camden, Newark or the Oranges then.
Haha that's the truth, we lived on Newark Ave in Bloomfield until I was 5. It was actually nice then. Then Dad decided to move us to South Jersey. We had family in the Caldwell's so we would travel frequently as I got older. Went through our old spot a lot and where my dad grew up in Newark. Every time I thanked him for moving us out of there...

But probably just as bad as Camden and Newark if not worse is Paterson.

For a state it's size it has a lot of crappy cities. We just named four without even talking about. AC, Trenton, and the always "up and coming" Asbury Park... "But wait there's more!"
 
Trifecta

I figure you are taking I-95 -- so don't forget Delaware. Your PA permit is not valid there either. Hate to admit it but I was born in New Jersey but avoid the state (or People's Rebulik) at all costs
 
Used to do repos in Trenton. Been to Camden many times for bankruptcy court hearings. Been in Newark, Elizabeth, Bayonne, Jersey City. Of course I didn't go there to hang out on corners but if you don't stand out and go about your business no one bothers you

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