Trigger Pull for a Duty/Carry Weapon

[Lost Lake]

They can gauge the pull all they want to. It wont turn a clean shoot into a crime. If it was within the self defense act, it doesnt matter if you have a 3 pound pull, a 12 pound pull, or hit the guy with a 12 pound hammer.

Many believe (myself included) that any tampering with a gun can and will be brought up in a court of law by a prosecutor looking to hang someone and make a name for himself.

He will try to convince the jury that you were looking for trouble, that you had your gun made super sensitive and quick to fire. You rolled your own, you carved 'death to commies' on your grips, whatever.

One great point I read (may have been Massad, not sure) is in a civil case, you will be asked how many times you fired etc. There is a fantastic chance that you will not be sure. A lightened trigger may lead to the jury believing you 'accidently' fired the last shot that killed the perp.

Then there was something about an accidental shooting and insurance coverage that I don't quite remember (help me out here guys!). What I remember is that if you needed to defend yourself, you want the jury to believe that every shot was a necessary shot to stop the threat. If there is a chance that the gun discharged one extra time, and you have a trigger lighter than the factory engineers determined was a safe and usual trigger pull, you are in a deep hole and fighting your way out....

In the end you gotta do what you think is right, and if you ever need to put a man down I hope everything works out for you.

 

[machz1]

Questions in court are not asked on an optional basis....

sorry, but you can take the 5th on any question that may incriminate you. not only that but last i knew you were not required to testify on your behalf to begin with.

 

[stainless1911]

The prosecutor will try anything in the book, I agree.

 

[machz1]

The prosecutor will try anything in the book, I agree.

to be fair, so will defense. justice is not about right and wrong, its about who can argue better.

 

[1fly2ty]

When all the dust settles here, the old addage "it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" still wins the argument! Just make sure the other guy in the fight never gets to testify!
Remember Bernard Goetz in the N.Y. when he only wounded his attackers!

 

[BklynE]

I'm not a LEO, and I don't even carry. In fact, I'm fairly new to this world (just got my first a few weeks ago... an MP .45). Assuming that 'justice' as has been said is about what can be proven more than what may be true, and or may be dependant on who can argue better, then why give the opposition another tool to use against you? Take a chance that they have a better lawyer than you do.

A friend of mine was teaching me to shoot with a Sig that had a 4.5 lb trigger pull and I got very comfortable with that. I decided on buying a MP .45 because of how it felt in my hand. When I got it a few weeks ago, I was quite discouraged after putting the first 150 rounds through it because I was all over the place. I thought I picked the wrong gun. My friend tried it and said I just had to get used to the heavy trigger pull. I have been doing some dry firing, and have put a few more hundred rounds through it since and am starting to get the feel for it and am enjoying it very much. The point being, if a newbie such as myself can get used to it, I'm sure a seasoned pro can. Why take the chance of modifying a weapon and leaving justice in the hands of lawyers? From all the research I've been doing regarding gun ownership (the castle doctrine, carrying, traveling with, shipping, etc...) that's one of the first things a prosecutor looks for in a shooting. How do you know your lawyer is better than theirs? You willing to take that chance?

 

[stainless1911]

Part of the responsibility in the right to carry a gun, is being able to place your shots accurately. If reloading or an upgraded part helps you do that, then that is what you should do.

They dont make you more guilty of speeding in a porsche than a prius.

 

[OKFC05]

sorry, but you can take the 5th on any question that may incriminate you. not only that but last i knew you were not required to testify on your behalf to begin with.

Well, sorta, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, it's not exactly allowed to do it question by question. If the defendant chooses to testify on his behalf (optional) then does not submit to cross examination (takes the 5th), the entire testimony can be tossed out.
In other words, you can choose to testify or not, but if you testify, you have to answer legit questions. Strongly suggest consulting with a lawyer who specializes in criminal law in the jurisdiction of interest. IANAL Rules in civil suits are different, and it may not be possible to avoid testifying.

A recent case in OK involving a pharmacist repeatedly shooting a downed robber (after taking time to get another gun) resulted in the defendant choosing NOT to testify after the security tape was shown to the jury. He is now in state prison serving his sentence for murder.
There was a civil suit filed also.

 

[machz1]

Well, sorta, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, it's not exactly allowed to do it question by question. If the defendant chooses to testify on his behalf (optional) then does not submit to cross examination (takes the 5th), the entire testimony can be tossed out.
In other words, you can choose to testify or not, but if you testify, you have to answer legit questions. Strongly suggest consulting with a lawyer who specializes in criminal law in the jurisdiction of interest. IANAL Rules in civil suits are different, and it may not be possible to avoid testifying.

A recent case in OK involving a pharmacist repeatedly shooting a downed robber (after taking time to get another gun) resulted in the defendant choosing NOT to testify after the security tape was shown to the jury. He is now in state prison serving his sentence for murder.
There was a civil suit filed also.

i saw that video and he deserved to be tried and imprisoned. he went from self defense to murder, plain as day. and it didnt happen exactly like you said, not only was the perp down, he was face down on the floor with gunshot wounds, the pharmacist went OUTSIDE after the other perp, came back in, grabbed another gun and proceeded to shoot the already down and wounded perp IN THE BACK multiple times..

 

[OKFC05]

i saw that video and he deserved to be tried and imprisoned. he went from self defense to murder, plain as day. and it didnt happen exactly like you said, not only was the perp down, he was face down on the floor with gunshot wounds, the pharmacist went OUTSIDE after the other perp, came back in, grabbed another gun and proceeded to shoot the already down and wounded perp IN THE BACK multiple times..

Given the graphic and horrific nature of that security tape, I never understood why the defendant demanded a jury trial when it became clear that the prosecution was cleared to use the tape. Certainly the jury showed him not the least bit of sympathy and a guilty plea might have gotten him a lighter sentence before a judge? I listened to the entire trial and thought the defense presented was l-a-m-e trying to justify it.
Just my personal opinion, "I made a horrible mistake in the heat of the moment and I'm profoundly sorry" with a plea to manslaughter would have been more realistic.

 

[machz1]

Given the graphic and horrific nature of that security tape, I never understood why the defendant demanded a jury trial when it became clear that the prosecution was cleared to use the tape. Certainly the jury showed him not the least bit of sympathy and a guilty plea might have gotten him a lighter sentence before a judge? I listened to the entire trial and thought the defense presented was l-a-m-e trying to justify it.
Just my personal opinion, "I made a horrible mistake in the heat of the moment and I'm profoundly sorry" with a plea to manslaughter would have been more realistic.

ya im no expert but you know the poor guy was jacked up on adrenaline, probably in shock and suffering PTSD and just made a poor choice. i agree with you 100%, when you screw up, admit it, make sure your genuine and take your lumps. painful as it may be ill bet he would have gotten much less.

 

[Rangel]

Sure you can plead the 5th amendment. The jury and Judge are also free to wonder why you're afraid to testify and what you possibly might be hiding from them.

A lawyer is free to talk volumes about a lightened trigger, accusing you of having an 'itchy finger' really 'wanting to shoot someone' and basically making you out to be an over zealous, not safe for the streets kind of person. They may even try and accuse you of being racist at the same time.

How convincing the lawyer is will effect the outcome, but if your gun's trigger was as it came from the factory, none of the above would likely be taking place.

There are plenty of guns--albiet usually more expensive guns, that you can order with very light triggers, if you really have to have that sort of thing. Having an unmodified 'factory stock' gun in a shooting would pretty much avoid the possible hassles described above.

 

[StatesRightist]

Sure you can plead the 5th amendment. The jury and Judge are also free to wonder why you're afraid to testify and what you possibly might be hiding from them.

A lawyer is free to talk volumes about a lightened trigger, accusing you of having an 'itchy finger' really 'wanting to shoot someone' and basically making you out to be an over zealous, not safe for the streets kind of person. They may even try and accuse you of being racist at the same time.

How convincing the lawyer is will effect the outcome, but if your gun's trigger was as it came from the factory, none of the above would likely be taking place.

There are plenty of guns--albiet usually more expensive guns, that you can order with very light triggers, if you really have to have that sort of thing. Having an unmodified 'factory stock' gun in a shooting would pretty much avoid the possible hassles described above.

You are right of course, but these experts with absolutely no real world knowledge or experience and mall ninja acquired skills know everything; after all they watch Perry Mason reruns and stay in Holiday Inns. You and I are just wasting our time trying to help them, they know it all. Save your time and energy.

 

[jane.]

Keep your trigger stock, or possibly lose your home

Night sights, more comfortable handle, better texture grip, all OK, try telling a 75 year old woman sequestered in a jury room away from her cats for a week why a 35 year old cop couldn't pull the standard trigger that 15000 other cops use, your lose. And forget about anything anything concerning rounds that are not dept issue . Your chief will love being on tv saying " we are looking into ". He will be the hero, you will wait for months, maybe years til it behooves department to settle case and leave you nowhere. Again, my free advice take it for what it's worth

 

[flkinganuthin]

You are right of course, but these experts with absolutely no real world knowledge or experience and mall ninja acquired skills know everything; after all they watch Perry Mason reruns and stay in Holiday Inns. You and I are just wasting our time trying to help them, they know it all. Save your time and energy.

Umm.. if you are on trial for any reason, and you take the stand, what you are suppose to do is fire your lawyer for letting you do so..
Honest to God, did you ever see any of these real life big cases lately where the defendant took the stand? HELL NO! You are innocent until proven guilty in this country, in case you are unaware. They have to PROVE, as in factual evidence beyond doubt that you did something wrong; not you have to prove you are innocent. Therefore if you are on trial, you dont say sh%&!
You don't go to prison because some prosecutor makes some hearsay opinion and his personal views become some sort of evidence. If it is that way, then it's time for a revolution back to justice and liberty.

 

[flkinganuthin]

Well, sorta, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, it's not exactly allowed to do it question by question. If the defendant chooses to testify on his behalf (optional) then does not submit to cross examination (takes the 5th), the entire testimony can be tossed out.
In other words, you can choose to testify or not, but if you testify, you have to answer legit questions. Strongly suggest consulting with a lawyer who specializes in criminal law in the jurisdiction of interest. IANAL Rules in civil suits are different, and it may not be possible to avoid testifying.

A recent case in OK involving a pharmacist repeatedly shooting a downed robber (after taking time to get another gun) resulted in the defendant choosing NOT to testify after the security tape was shown to the jury. He is now in state prison serving his sentence for murder.
There was a civil suit filed also.

I'm willing to bet it was the video that did him in, not the choice of silence.

 

[myanof]

I don't. Most other instructors I know also recomend caution with modifying a carry gun.
I even shoot a stock M&P Pro 5" in IDPA/SSP and USPSA Production, and feel no need for a lighter trigger. You see, I am a long-time revolver shooter and find the stock M&P trigger just fine.

There are two categories of shooters who AWAYS want to modify the M&P trigger: those who want it to be as like their 1911/2011 as possible, and those who want to modify every gun they get.
For the rest of the shooters, some do, some don't.

My recommendation to is take a gun class or two with a stock M&P and learn to shoot it. Then you can make a rational decision based on your training and experience.

It's funny you mention this because I fall right into this category also. I am a longtime 1911 shooter (4# crisp trigger pull), and also grew up shooting revolvers. Many days I carry a 340PD in my pocket, and am very proficient out to 15 yds.

I bit the bullet and bought a M&P 45C ,and began asking the same questions about what to do with the trigger. After a lot of research, I took the advice of many who said just shoot the heck out of the new gun and the trigger will be fine.

I am now at the point, after about 6 months, where I can shoot my 45C as well as my full size 1911 from 0-15 yds in a defensive situation. I never thought I would say these words.

I'm still playing with the gun, but I have so much confidence in this 45C that I will probably leave the trigger alone and just carry the gun the way it is now.

 

[stainless1911]

What if you never planned on carrying the gun with an improved safety system, but for one reason or another, you decided to carry it on the day you needed to use it.

Several reasons could bring this about. The gun is a safe queen, not all beat up, and that day, you wanted to dress up for a special occasion. Your EDC is in the shop, who knows? You werent planning a massacre because of your light trigger.

BTW, if you think a trigger will get you into trouble, you should just carry FMJ. or better yet, subsonic frangible rounds. Better not carry a .45 either, most departments now carry .40, you dont want too big of a gun. You might not want to carry anything bigger than a 9mm. the military carries those now, and if you carry what a soldier carries, you are just trying to be one, looking for a war.

 

[WR Moore]

Bull. If you cant find the trigger, leave it at home. If you're shooting multiple rounds in quick succession, you need a manageable trigger to maintain accuracy and control, especially if you have innocents in the area.

Now about the finger alongside the frame....in role playing with sensor equipped simunitions pistols, trained LEOs who KNEW this was a game have demonstrated that the trigger digit will find it's way to the trigger in an unconcious manner in a significant number of times when the stress level rises. This has been documented by several studies, some of which are available in letters from the Force Science Institute, they've also got a name for the behavior. So where you should have your trigger digit and where it may be are not necessarily the same even with the aid of significant training.

Secondly, I have no issues making good hits in the rapid incapacitation target area with split times in the 1/4 second range at 7 yards with either an M&P9 or .40. S&W knew exactly what they were about when they designed the weapon system, it was not "unfinished". Not to your particular preference, maybe, but not unfinished.

Now, you may have mentioned the .45 which has a different trigger geometry than the M&P 9 & 40. I've never tried one and really can't speak to it. If you have issues with finger reach to the trigger or compatability of frame to hand size, modification to increase your control of the weapon may be something that could possibly be "sold" to a jury. However, this is an avoidable issue that is not guaranteed to be resolved in your favor, particularly if someone with similar hand size can demonstrate adequate control with a stock weapon. Frankly, if the 9/.40 fits your hand better, it might be a better choice even if it isn't in the mythical .45ACP.

Finally, many trainers answer the question about how to best spend money on their new pistol with: "practice ammo."

 

[StatesRightist]

Res Ipsa Loquitor....