Trigger Reset Question

[Par8head]

(Sorry for the blurry pics)
I am setting up a new MP 45C as my primary carry.

I've installed an APEX comp trigger spring,(kept the factory striker), polished the trigger bar and sear and radiused the plunger as a DIY "Burwell" trigger job. I Installed a 10-8 rear and F/O .115 front and went to the range today.
Here's my question:
As part of practice I do some Bill Drills; my splits with my MP 9 Pro, MP 45 FS and even the bone stock MP 22 LR were as per normal .16 to .18 seconds but with the 45C I could not get below .20-.22 sec. Several times I failed to reset after the second shot. (I neglected to switch slides between the two .45s and compare.)
The trigger reset done slowly seems to mirror the other MP's in vagueness and distance...I'm concerned but not sure what how to proceed.
Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Denversteve]

My thought is - my stock pistols (all of mine are) never fail to function perfectly. Maybe leave the pistol the way the engineers designed them. Now that they are not stock you might want to take it to an armorer and have it restored to perfect.

 

[icemn]

Par8head, I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sure there are some helpful forum members who do and they'll probably be along shortly. The reset is a long one. I'm sure Randy Lee, Hilton Yam and Dan Burwell would have some useful thoughts on the subject. I might be inclined to email each of them and see where that takes you. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

Regards,

Icemn

 

[jajo]

Maybe it's too early for me, but was there a question in the OP?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Rastoff]

I don't understand your times. I thought a "Bill Drill" was putting 6 shots in the A ring as fast as you can starting from the holster. If your "splits" are from shot to shot, it doesn't matter. What counts is the time for the whole 6 shots.

At least that's how I understand it.

Further, are you going to use that giant magazine when you carry?

 

[shawn mccarver]

(Sorry for the blurry pics)
I am setting up a new MP 45C as my primary carry.

I've installed an APEX comp trigger spring,(kept the factory striker), polished the trigger bar and sear and radiused the plunger as a DIY "Burwell" trigger job. I Installed a 10-8 rear and F/O .115 front and went to the range today.
Here's my question:
As part of practice I do some Bill Drills; my splits with my MP 9 Pro, MP 45 FS and even the bone stock MP 22 LR were as per normal .16 to .18 seconds but with the 45C I could not get below .20-.22 sec. Several times I failed to reset after the second shot. (I neglected to switch slides between the two .45s and compare.)
The trigger reset done slowly seems to mirror the other MP's in vagueness and distance...I'm concerned but not sure what how to proceed.
Anyone have any thoughts?

My thoughts, since you asked, are that you did not need to do any of the above. Oddly enough, S&W has engineers who design pistols to function with the parts they put in. Putting a competition (if that is what you meant by "comp") spring into a carry gun is a recipe for disaster.

That magazine, I suppose will be carried as a spare? It certainly will not work in any belt holster I can think of for concealed carry. Unless, of course, you plan to use one of those unfortunate horizontal shoulder holsters where the magazine is hanging straight down so it is parallel to your body. Of course, then the rest of us have to worry about having the muzzle pointed at us any time you are around.

As to your question on "how to proceed." Quite frankly, were I you, I would send it to S&W and ask them, on your dime, to restore it back to factory original. Then, I would advise you to buy 2,000 rounds of ammo, shoot it in real practice (not just plinking) over the next year. Then you will learn how to shoot, and your pistol will be made smoother by its use, and you will be better off for the experience.

Gadgets, widgets, 10-8 versus Novak - none will make you a better shot, and that is the point of the exercise, isn't it?

I am sorry. That was not much fun, was it.

But you did ask.

 

[icemn]

Par8head, you may already be aware- but in case you're not- the Apex competition trigger return spring is the same spring they use in their Sigma kit.
FWIW, I have it in my 45c, along with a Burwell trigger job which I like a whole lot better than the stock set up. I have no plans to change mine. And, since it is your gun, you get to decide what is best for you. I also think the 10-8 sights are a nice option. But I happened to prefer Trijicons.

 

[robkarrob]

Par8head

There are those that do, and those that don't modify their guns. Seems your getting jumped on by a lot for trying. I am on your side as I want the gun to perform to my liking, not an engineer/designer's generic design, as long as it is safe and functions properly. I have made changes to my guns that didn't work right or turn out the way I had hoped for, but that did not discourage me from trying until I got it right. My mods have to be safe and totally reliable, for me to call it a success.

Sounds like only a few hundreds of a second, which is nothing. The softer trigger spring makes the trigger easier to pull, but since it has less power, it would also slow down the return of the trigger. I would doubt that could be actually measured in a actual shooting timing scenario, but in scientific testing, the trigger would return slower, with the softer comp spring installed.

Bob

 

[WR Moore]

Par8head

The softer recoil spring makes the trigger easier to pull, but since it has less power, it would also slow down the return of the trigger. I would doubt that could be actually measured in a actual shooting timing scenario, but in scientific testing, the trigger would return slower, with the softer comp spring installed.

Bob

Perhaps you could explain exactly how the RECOIL spring affects the trigger pull? Given the time stamp on your entry it could be that wee hours of the AM are affecting typing or mental skills.

The rest of your post is dead on, a lighter trigger return spring will slow the reset of the trigger, but the results are meaningless in the real world. The world of gun games is something else.

However, there is another point here. Putting competition parts in carry guns (particularly firing systems) is adding an additional risk. If your game gun malfunctions, the worst you get is ribbing from your friends/opponents and some possible reduction in self esteem. Malfunctions in a self defense situations can have a much steeper price tag. FWIW, when Todd Green was testing (and torturing) the then new M&P9, he found a MA/NY compliant heavy trigger return spring greatly improved reset and return speeds. In the real world, the difference in split times between 5 shots per second and 4 shots per second is meaningless. What's important is where those bullets go.

 

[Denversteve]

Par8head
as long as it is safe and functions properly. Bob

Agreed but his doesn't function properly therefore it isn't safe. Additionally, if someone is in an unfortunate shoot situation, the first thing the police do with the confiscated firearm is send it to the state laboratory to see if it has been modified in any way. Once it has been determined that it has, a whole new world of liability opens up. My suggestion (I'm only a retired cop and 30 year tactical and liability instructor which may mean absolutely nothing) is to leave carry pistols stock and play (modify) with your range and competition pistols all you want.

 

[Rastoff]

Denversteve,
This is a serious question. Can you link to any case where a modified gun attributed to a conviction? Especially a case where the scales were tipped or the last straw was the modified gun.

I'm not questioning you. In fact I agree with what you said. I just want a case to be able to refer to.

 

[Denversteve]

Denversteve,
This is a serious question. Can you link to any case where a modified gun attributed to a conviction? Especially a case where the scales were tipped or the last straw was the modified gun.

I'm not questioning you. In fact I agree with what you said. I just want a case to be able to refer to.

Nope. Primarily because cops (my usual associates) generally refrain from pistol modification due to department policy. But that's the reason for the policy. If a prosecution or civll liability attorney can enhance charges by showing that a gun owner modified the pistol, they will try to assign recklessness or pre-meditation to a charge which has been filed. Of course, there may be attorneys herein who could provide case law. I also speak from Colorado practice which may not be the same in your area.

 

[Par8head]

Well....................yes I did ask and honestly thank you all for your comments and suggestions.
To clarify: The mag is a back up 'cause when I can I'd rather have 14 than 8 or 10; and the 10-8 base pad is I helpful.
On this particular pistol the trigger was truly terrible, and I feel that a good trigger is in some small way a contributor to good shooting.
I should not have said "Bill Drill", rather just mentioned split times, which I use as a base line to help in my training.

Since my post I found info on B Enos' forum, summarizing the fix that works for me.(Can't get it to link). It involved a bit more work on the sear and now the 45C matches the other three M&P's in trigger reset.

I know I lack many of your life's experiences and I appreciate your service and dedication, but I also practice, train and compete in our fine sport; it's a passion not a hobby.

Once again thanks to all who took the time to comment.
Best

 

[Rastoff]

Nope. Primarily because cops (my usual associates) generally refrain from pistol modification due to department policy. But that's the reason for the policy. If a prosecution or civll liability attorney can enhance charges by showing that a gun owner modified the pistol, they will try to assign recklessness or pre-meditation to a charge which has been filed. Of course, there may be attorneys herein who could provide case law. I also speak from Colorado practice which may not be the same in your area.

Trust me, your laws or interpretation of them cannot be worse than where I live.

Still, thanks for the insight.

 

[scattershot]

Well....................yes I did ask and honestly thank you all for your comments and suggestions.
To clarify: The mag is a back up 'cause when I can I'd rather have 14 than 8 or 10; and the 10-8 base pad is I helpful.

I know I lack many of your life's experiences and I appreciate your service and dedication, but I also practice, train and compete in our fine sport; it's a passion not a hobby.

Once again thank to all who took the time to comment.
Best

Spoken like a true gentleman. Welcome to the forum.

 

[robkarrob]

WR Moore reply

Yes I did incorrectly write a "softer recoil spring" when I meant to say a softer trigger spring. I changed that post to reflect the correct spring.


Bob