Truth or Fiction - 5.56x45 same as .223Rem?

[hoc9sw]

Rastoff,

I wish I had a LGS that had stuff that would draw that sort of traffic. But at least my LGS demands experience. Last time I was there they offered me a job. Explained I was walking dead from cancer, and had to keep my real job for insurance. His reply was "If someone is going to get the best of what you know, I'm in". Not sure if it was real or moral support, doesn't much matter. Made my day. OK, it doesn't take much to make my day the last few months.

 

[Rastoff]

I wish I had a LGS that had stuff that would draw that sort of traffic.

I'm not sure you do. The reason they get that kind of draw is because they have a large populace to draw from.

The store is in Bakersfield, CA. Population of about 365K. It is not a bad town, but it certainly isn't a "model" city. Lots of crime and traffic. I go there for big stores sometimes, but I'd rather stay in my little mountain town.

 

[hoc9sw]

Know the area well. Was out there several months a year in the mid-80's.

 

[PR24]

There's no cure for stupid, gents. Being a gunshop employee makes one no more a gun expert than having piano makes your a pianist.

There's a gunshop in Tempe AZ that has a bunch of jackwagons working there who think they're the be all/end all in TACTICAL OPS. They really are a punchline! I mean seriously?? You run a gun store dressed like SWAT dudes? No, they're not police, not military, just a bunch of POSERS! Needless to say, the smarter gun owners steer clear of that joint, but the uninitiated and or clueless have no idea.

Fools like that and the fools at aforementioned CA store give the rest of us a bad name and create fodder for the anti gun media.

 

[Magload]

I have one of those gun stores here it is the one that gets $40 a pound for powder and sells Shields for $500 and people buy them. Don

 

[gunny4053]

Thanks for the story gunny. I appreciate you allowing us to learn from your experience.

You're welcome. The real problem when addressing the two and AR's are the potential for someone to cause real harm. The first issue is minor. An auto loader probably won't load a .556 in a .223 chamber, so really annoying and probably won't fire. Then there's the AR's favorite accessory, the bolt assist. A new guy might use that to force a round into the chamber, crimping the cartridge throat and pressing the bullet against the rifling. Pressure becomes the enemy at this point, possibly exploding and jamming all the internal parts together for eternity. That little extra leade is like Brylcreem, a little dab will do ya.

 

[MarkL_01]

..... clipped ....
The difference in testing could account for the difference in stated chamber pressure.
...clipped...

I recently chronographed Hornady 55gr .223 and Independence 55gr 5.56 factory loads from an 18.5" barrel, 5.56 chamber. Average velocities were 2966 and 3295 fps, respectively.

This makes me think that there is a considerable difference in pressure between these loads. Of course, I have no idea where either of these loads stands with respect to the maximum chamber pressures.

-Mark

 

[44wheelman]

Salesmen....little truth, mostly fiction. Some know their stuff, but most it seems were selling used cars yesterday.

All I wanted to do was buy a Beretta 96A1.

The guy in Cabela's didn't know any difference between a 96A1 & model 96 (redesigned due to cracking). Another sales guy told me a 9mm would be more accurate than a .40, because the .40 was bigger in diameter....

I'm sure we could all go on & on...

 

[Pisgah]

Let me add to the confusion......

On CZ USA's website ......FAQ

Q: Can CZ rifles chambered in .223 fire 5.56 ammunition safely?

Answer: "All of our .223s will happily eat 5.56. ....... we build everything to CIP spec, which doesn't differentiate between the two cartridges and just has the higher pressure as its standard..........."

And this is exactly the route most manufacturers follow. Yes, they are interchangeable in MOST rifles, assuming the rifle in question has an action capable of handling the higher pressures AND does not have a minimum-spec (match) chamber.

For instance, I have 2 Savage Axis rifles, one in .223 and one in .270. The action, same for both, is fully capable of handling the 62,000 PSI .270 loads, so the pressures pose no threat to the .223 rifle, and the chambers are the standard, middle-of-the-road loose configuration. Now, if I were shooting an action designed for a max of 55,000 PSI, or having a tight, minimum-spec chamber, I would be a bit more cautious. When it comes to AR types, no worries about the ammo for standard AR's, but if you have one that is built as a varmint or target rifle the tight chamber may cause over-the-top pressures; if your AR is a Super-Duper Long-Range Varmint Special marked .223, sticking to .223 would be wise.

 

[sgtsandman]

All of the above is why I would rather go to a small, mom and pop gun shop that looks run down and smells like bait. Chances are, they know what they are talking about or know where to get the info if they don't. And they won't just tell you things just to make a sell.

 

[Model52guy]

Dont be so hard on those gun store salesman who dont know anything about guns. In the past year I have purchased 3 nice old smiths from those kind of sales people. Bought a really nice 1933 K22 numbers matching outdoorsman for $700. (value according to the experts on this site around $2500). Also bought a 90+% 3rd model numbers matching Ladysmith M frame for $450. Value around 2500-3000. Latest purchase was a 95% K22 4 digit SN, numbers matching for $750.
So, I love those guys.

 

[Engineer1911]

Defending the Dead Horse

After almost 40 years of mechanical engineering and engineering specifications, SAMMI specs are engineering specifications with dimensions, pressures, and test methodology specified.

I submit this simple question in defense of this poor beaten dead horse. Is there a single (JUST ONE) documented incident where 5.56 ammo damaged a .223 caliber rifle -- any rifle: bolt, pump, semi-auto, direct impingement, piston operated, or lever action? This is not a "specification challenge", but a simple question "Did 5.56 ammo damage a .223 rifle?" Let the beating resume.

Now, I have reloaded 223 ammo to 2.260" OAL (fits an AR magazine) and fired it in a standard 223 chamber where the bullet nose has engaged the rifling by 0.020" . If the rifle was unloaded, the bullet pulled out of the case. If the rifle was fired, the primer was pierced and flattened. After reseating the bullets to 2.225, the ammo shot without any problems.

 

[nyeti]

Nope, you're pretty much correct. A 5.56 NATO leade is longer than that of the .223 Remington. You can shoot .223 in the former, but not vice versa.

As far as what happens if you do it anyway, in many cases it results in blown primers which choke up the action. I haven't heard of any actual KBs resulting from it, but I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Bingo. I have personally had this issue happen when I ran a .223 chambered Precision Rifle (AR ) with dept training ammo normally used in 5.56 guns. Pulled a bunch of blown primers out of the seized action. If you are blowing primers...it is hard on the gun, period. Add a few other factors and you can do real harm.

Also, many companies label guns as 5.56, and they are not. This is actually fairly common. Of course there is also the most over used and b.s term in AR world...Mil-Spec. For me, I want a gun that is held to a Technical Data Package standard for a serious use carbine.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Here's the way I see it, whatever the cartridge designation is on the rifle barrel, that's what it gets fed. If it say's .223 Rem that's what it shoots, if it say's 5.56 NATO that's what it shoots. Although we know it's safe to shoot the .223 Rem out of a 5.56 NATO I think that's a good rule of thumb to use across the board with the new shooters till they get their feet wet so to speak.

 

[Rastoff]

Since you brought it up again, I figure I do a little follow up.

I did receive a response from the store manager. Even though I showed him the Federal site that says not to fire their 5.56x45 in a barrel chambered for .223Rem, he is going to continue to tell his customers they are interchangeable.

It is my opinion that this is a poor policy. Just one more instance where Caveat Emptor needs to be followed.

 

[gregintenn]

I have a zip lock bag with about 500 spent brass from both 5.56 and .223. You can clearly see thru bag which is 5.56 and which is the .223.
Why some salesmen will tell you they are exactly the same is the question of the ages. Either they truly are stupid, or have been told by the boss there is no difference. Either way, it can get someone hurt.

Other than possibly the color change from neck annealing or different colored primers, how, exactly can you tell? It's the same brass. I reload it interchangeably.

 

[rtquig]

There is a slight difference in neck size, very small, but you can tell. the 5.56 stays wide longer in the neck by a very small but noticeable amount.

 

[gregintenn]

There is a slight difference in neck size, very small, but you can tell. the 5.56 stays wide longer in the neck by a very small but noticeable amount.

I don't think so. The two cases are exactly the same dimension wise. Only headstamps differ. That, and a lot of 556 is discolored at the neck from annealing. Generally, the 556 has crimped primer pockets while most 223 doesn't. I expect there are exceptions.

There is a slight difference in chamber dimensions, but not in brass.

 

[rtquig]

The neck looks bigger to me but my eyes aren't what they used to be. To me, it appears the neck stays wider longer on the 5.56 but as you said, it could the color change. I only reload shotgun, I give my brass to a friend who reloads.

 

[JaPes]

Since you brought it up again, I figure I do a little follow up.

I did receive a response from the store manager. Even though I showed him the Federal site that says not to fire their 5.56x45 in a barrel chambered for .223Rem, he is going to continue to tell his customers they are interchangeable.

It is my opinion that this is a poor policy. Just one more instance where Caveat Emptor needs to be followed.

I'm not convinced that the adage "let the buyer beware" is the only adage that applies. The adage presumes that an individual has the critical thinking ability to discern the credibility of a source of information. If an individual's inclination is blind faith in what appears to be a credible authority, that individual will always commit the error of blind faith. While I would hope that someone in a perceived position of authority and credibility would consider it a moral responsibility to disseminate credible and accurate information, my hopes are not congruent with reality; especially in a gun store setting. I think an adage attributed to P.T. Barnum is more appropriate:

"There's a sucker born every minute."

While I would like to hold the aforementioned store manager responsible for all destruction to property and physical harm his false statements can cause, ultimately the onus of assessing the credibility of information that has consequential affect to both bodily and physical safety belongs solely to the individual. If said individual does not wish to employ critical thinking skills, then they will forever be a "sucker".

I must strive to be more approachable and amenable to brand new sub-forum members who ask novice questions. They are gathering information on which to form a foundation of background knowledge. They're motivated to not be a "sucker".